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« Emotions, Self-Control, and Correcting Habits | Main | Duality: Good and Bad, Dysfunction and Perfection »

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Comments

Sonja

We are placed on this Earth to evolve and we are given the choice to experience each situation with compassion or with suffering. Suffering results anytime we feel desire or fear. The strength with which we feel the desire or fear is the strength of the suffering that we incur.

Evil is an extremely strong desire or fear. When desire is overwhelmingly strong, a soul will do anything to obtain the object. When fear is overwhelmingly strong, a soul will do anything to avoid the object. Strong desire will search for its counterpart in fear and that is when evil occurs.

A fear or desire, however fleeting, is the root cause of everything "bad" that happens to us or those we know. We then choose to turn away from the experience or become involved based on previous habits and tendencies. Suffering results when we either turn away with fear or become involved because of desire. If we choose to experience the situation with compassion - embracing it, feeling it, and letting it go - we provide room for other situations to occur and our ability to feel compassion becomes stronger.

How does astrology fit into this? I believe the planets provide us with a glimpse of what is to come into our lives. Knowing this, we have an opportunity to recognize the situation and respond to it with compassion instead of fear or desire.

Even the "worst" aspects can be liberating for a soul who views the experience with compassion and, conversely, even the "best" aspects can be crushing where there is desire or fear. By using astrology to prepare ourselves, we increase the chance that we will respond to the situation with compassion and decrease suffering for ourselves and those around us.

So is there an "evil" chart? There are charts where a soul is given chances to view many facets of existence with fear, desire, or compassion. Other charts have fewer chances but perhaps the experiences will be stronger because of past habits or tendencies. Is one better than the other? I believe the answer to that lies with our soul and its capacity for cultivating compassion.

Robert

What a wonderful and concise framing of a fundamental human challenge! Your words express a deep wisdom all can use for creating goodwill and strength of Spirit.

As you know from other posts, I believe a basic problem of humanity does involve fear, as well as the mental afflictions of attachment, aversion, delusion as a result of misunderstanding, as well as the generic tendency for the mind to suffer over its own suffering.

Yes, squares and oppositions provide very fertile ground for growth, usually more than "harmonious" aspects, though of course I know very few who don't like the comfort of harmonious conditions. You are absolutely correct when you say that the "best" aspects can crush a being if they are anchored in fear or desire. Of course these can teach us as well, since they magnify with each attempt to attach or avoid either of them. This can teach us a lot about perception, and conditional "truth" versus unconditional Truth.

Thanks for commenting. Aum and blessings.

Dion

I personally look for a maliciousness count. Look to mars jupiter relation. Before 180 are more naive types. Whereas past 180 tends to take more advantage. Henry kissinger is a good example. An israel for that matter.

Robert

I'll check that out, Dion. I usually don't see maliciousness associated with Jupiter. Any of the other outers, and even Mercury, but usually not Jupiter. And I will check it out, since you seem to be saying that a waning Mars-Jupiter aspect is more malicious than a waxing aspect, which is an interesting concept.

rachel

A followup to this morsel of enlightenment, Robert: Has anyone ever done large-scale studies or research on the propensity of certain birth charts to manifest in major life outcomes generallly perceived as "negative" or 'antisocial", e.g., murder/abuse, pedophilia, suicide, incarceration, depression. schizophrenia, homelessness, etc.? Will there come a day when an intake interview will include a full-scale natal workup as a diagnostic tool? Me: 3/18/53,6:10am, Wash, DC.

Robert

Hi rachel - There have been books done touching on psychological dysfunctions and disorders in Astrology, but nothing exhaustive or definitive. A lot of what I've seen written on the subject is very speculative and sloppy reasoning. My personal take is that each planet has a duality of function, and that the same aspects that make for evil also can make for good. We choose our behaviors in the moment, since consciousness is always superior to the physical and emotional instincts.

I wouldn't group schizophrenia, autism, and other severe brain "disorders" with murder, pedophilia, suicide, and the other evil behaviors we choose to indulge in. And I'd be very wary of attributing any aspect to future dysfunctional behaviors, lest we condemn someone before the fact for what they haven't and might not do.

We can get indicators, but Spirit is always superior to matter, and even an epileptic or pyromaniac could still find a way to higher consciousness if they found the right teacher. I've read tales and heard personal accounts from people over the years of "gurus" who have some interesting higher powers to change the brain chemistry of their accepted disciples. Thus someone with tendencies to destroy could very well be the builders of great works.

All this aside, yes, we could profit immensely by doing a chart on everyone who enters school, needs psychological evaluations, professional aptitudes, and so forth. (I've heard that one of my readings cuts through the first year or two of therapy!) Once we know the inner patterns, biases, and tendencies, then we can work with the strengths and aptitudes accenting the positive potentials rather than the potential adverse behaviors. In this sense the I Ching is correct that "the best way to fight evil is to make progress in the good." And of course, ultimately each Soul makes their choices at critical moments, unless they're completely removed from external reality for whatever reasons. Then they're just putting in karmic time until they check out at the appointed moment.

Sam

Hi Robert
A wonderful article on good & evil in the chart.
You classed suicide with other evil behaviors we choose to indulge in and I had not seen it that way before thinking only of the distress involved.
Would you like to comment on a chart of a severely intellectually handicapped,our
son who we thought was normal until about age 8 months and who is 42 this year. He has the mental age of an 18 months child. His birthday 15 September 1965 1:50AM 38s08,144e21, -10hours. A very happy fellow, loves people, food, is very determined. He is about 6 foot tall and quite solid. He would have been a very handsome man.
A psychiatrist told me we have an ongoing grief. A mother of a child who is cared for with ours tells me 'We have an Angel in Heaven". Karma?
I commented to my husband once "Had I not suffered enough", and he answered, "No, Not enough yet Sam, Not enough yet, quoting from some wise philosopher. It was a shock but perhaps helps in a way now with life's blows I repeat: 'Not enough yet Sam, Not enough yet"

I read about January 9 being perhaps the most sacred day of your year Robert and glimpsed something of your deep emotional hurt and pain, also your bravery.
Love Sam

Robert

Hi Sam - The problem with suicide is that it is an entirely voluntary self-destruction of the body, a misguided effort if ever there was one. The problem originates in the mind, then takes hold of the feelings. Thus killing the body is a useless gesture, and forms very negative future karmas. And the unfortunate truth for suicides is that though they destroy the physical body, the astral and mental bodies persist in space-time until the moment set by Karma when they dissolve and the Eternal Consciousness returns to Devachan, or Heaven. The time between the death of the body and the death of the feelings and mental patterns is very difficult, since they no longer have the means to live a better way, or ground in physical reality a different set of thoughtforms.

This is probably not the forum to discuss your son's birthchart. As for your grief - no doubt your circumstance carries its own type of grief, for all that has been and all that can never be. We grieve lost hopes and dreams as well as the difficulty in our lives and the lives of our loved ones. And yet, love is greater than death, and therefore greater than all things known. I believe we've ALL suffered enough on this Earth over lifetimes, and as a human race are about to experience a shift like no other we've known for thousands of years, perhaps "finally" breaking the link between pain and suffering. Everything we endure in this impermanent world is grist for the mill of Soul, and to quote another great philosopher, "even tears can be transformed into jewels in the light of victory over night and sorrow." By your perseverence in love and caring for this being who is in your Soul group, you no doubt have earned your wings in the next world. From one who walks between worlds, thanks for your nobility and courage. You and your husband are truly remarkable beings.

Lynn

Love this post Robert, and Sonya's addition to it. Beautifully written.

Robert

Hi Lynn - Thanks. Understanding and reconciling the proper place for "good and evil" in this world may be the most difficult thing for all of us. When we do, it's a whole new era, forever.

Sam

Hello Robert
Thank you for your incredible insight, encouragement and great humility.
Sam

Sam

Robert
I did mean to include this in the above post. Could it shine any light on good or evil in the chart.

"It was pride that changed angels into devils; it is humility that makes men as angels." - St. Augustine

Sam

Bai Ming Sheng

Robert -

I find your perceptions regarding good and evil in the article excellent considering that it is such a difficult and intangible subject. However, I have to disagree almost completely with your comments regarding suicide and/or the grouping with physical death or any other form of karma/dharma.

IMHO:

Any death is a choice, not just suicide as it appears to be defined here as the direct taking of a life. There are many many passive forms of self-death that are simply not classified as "suicide" by our society are still self-choices and still the taking of one's own life.

All are a combination of the larger purpose of the universe and an individual's choices in how much or how little to participate in that larger purpose.

Life is still an interaction of the individual's soul with the whole consciousness of humanity, and the choices are always there, even for life and death in this physical existence. This is true whether the individual's conscious physical state realizes it or is aware of it or not.

Even if the individual's consciousness chooses a "reaction" to life circumstances to seek to end the physical body's life (and the consciousness will continue to live without the body),there must be agreement with the universal consciousness for the physical death to happen.

Alternatively, when an individual dying "naturally" (i.e., old age) does not want to let go of the physical body, there comes a point in agreement of that individual (aware or not) with the universal consciousness that the time has come for the death to happen.

It is always! an interaction. A person cannot actually die from suicide unless the universal consciousness has agreed and allowed it to happen. And a natural death will not happen (based on the universal consciousness timing) unless the individual's consciousness agrees (even for a split second in time) that it can.

It is the most amazing thing I've ever seen, and seen it I have.

Been dead twice. It's always a choice.

Robert

Hi Sam - Well, it always seems as though the greatest people of our world history always possessed a degree of humility. Lincoln and Gandhi spring to mind. And history records many whose pride certainly "goeth before their fall." Nixon and Bush spring to mind.

Hi Bai Ming Sheng - Well, I debated whether to introduce the concept, since the post is on a somewhat different subject. However, having also been taken to the other side and given a chance to come back, as well as having lost a lot of friends to passive and active suicide, I have my own take on things. First of all, as an astrologer, I have observed that we have several points of potential "death." Which one operates has everything to do with our willingness to grow and serve, but at some point no amount of willingness to live will spare the body. When it's time to go, it's time to go, whether we "agree" to it or not. There are too many who go kicking and screaming, afraid to the marrow, for it to be an "agreement" in the sense that most think of that term. And yes, we can die at will, from "natural" as well as "unnatural" causes.

Perhaps from the angle of Soul, there is an agreement, much as there is an "agreement" to come into the body at a certain place and time. However, these potential entry and exit points are ENTIRELY determined by karma, past and present. We are not separate from our Eternal Life, so in that sense I agree that we are always interacting with Universal Consciousness. That said, we only "choose" to cooperate with what essentially IS, patterns of karmas created past and present by what we do and don't do that contributes to the fabric of everything else in our lives.

How much "choice" we seem to have is always determined by karmic circumstances created before the appearance of opportunity to "choose." We are not separate from the causes we initiate. If a person full of prescription drugs climbs to the top of a tree on a sub-freezing night in winter with a gallon of vodka and drinks till they pass out and fall to the ground 50 feet below, they will die. Did they "choose" suicide? Perhaps. Did they choose to die? If they chose to do that behavior then they would die whether they "chose" that potential outcome or not. In the example I just gave, there is no way the being could have lived, even if they made some "agreement" on the Soul level to live. If they had truly chosen to live, they would not have done that specific behavior. Once they chose it, the outcome was inevitable, as it would be for ANYONE who did the same thing. No amount of deciding to live beyond that point in time would spare the body of someone who takes that kind of fall. It's a limitation of the physical form, which when broken beyond repair in certain ways, is no longer a suitable vehicle for the indwelling Spirit.

I agree that how much we choose to participate in Universal patterns determines much in the way of personal patterns. However, though all Souls are ONE on the Buddhic, Atmic, and Monadic levels of material existence, most ego-minds are not interacting directly with their own or others' Souls due to being trapped in a delusion of separateness, whether they know it or not. They may BE Souls, but that doesn't mean they are aware of it. This leads to karmas that play out in the material and nonmaterial existence of the impermanent form, with some retained for future incarnations due to an inability to work them out through appropriate circumstances. Of course, should one attain "perfect enlightenment" in a life, then what I've just said doesn't apply.

The body, despite its miraculous abilities, still has limits, after which it dies (unless we are Jivanmutkas!) No amount of perceived agreement with Universal Consciousness to live on and on will negate the fact that if one has terminal injuries in an auto accident, whether it was one's "choice" or not, the body functions will terminate. You cannot persist for long in an Earth body if you don't have a heart, or lungs, or liver, or kidneys. It CANNOT happen. Divine Mind made this system that way.

It may be that we're exploring semantics. At some point we humans die as a function of creating karmas that lead us to that point when it's time to check out. Despite knowing that Divine Mind is limitless in its Love, Wisdom, and Intelligence, and having seen miracles of healing in my life and the lives of others, I don't believe in personalizing Universal Consciousness in ways that could be very discouraging to some people if they don't get the types of healing they want. While that point of view could yield virtues such as humility, surrender, and acceptance of a "Higher Will," still, I've seen a lot of suffering come from people assuming they can "petition the Lord with prayer," to quote a well-known poet. We can, of course, but I've also found that "sometimes the answer is no." There are things outside of our power to determine on an egoic level. Then we must cooperate with Universal Consciousness, Spirit, Divine Mind, or Karma, which all work as ONE. If this is what you mean by us and Universal Mind coming to an agreement, then I suppose we're "in agreement."

Bai Ming Sheng

Robert...

I'm smiling because I enjoyed your description of those who leave this life "kicking and screaming." There is so much more to the human psyche than what appears on the surface. I also thought about the fact that I tend to love a debate, although this one is not important enough to use your space for such a personal game I would play. I did just want to answer to note that I finally followed up on my comment, and to add a couple of responses.

I was surprised to see an astrologist mention openly the "points of potential death" (assuming that you mean that they show in a chart). Of course. We actually have many if we choose them. But death does not necessarily mean an end to this physical existence. And death does not necessarily mean an end; it often means a rebirth of something new.

My sense is that you consider the physical death such an ending. In fact, I can only perceive it as a point of passage through "time" for the lack of a better term.

The physical reality is such a miniscule of the universal awareness, and indeed many believe it is merely a projection of the thought anyway.

Time itself is a creation of the mind, with no ending or beginning because each "point in time" is an ending and a beginning.

There can be no light without dark, no male without female, no up without down, and no karma without dharma (the blessings of both).

I would also like to point out that many of our own life experiences are not necessarily meant for the individual they are happening to, but even much more to those around that individual for lessons to be learned. Lessons come from what we observe as well as experience, and not all experiences that happen to an individual may have anything to do with that person at all.

I point out as an example someone who may be severely disabled, where others look at them and wonder how that person can manage through a day. The lesson is not for the one that is disabled, but for those around the person, interacting and possibly responsible.

For every so-called "karma" or negative there is an equally strong "dharma" or positive effect, if only it is allowed to be seen. Unfortunately too many want to live in the physical and the present sensory satisfactions. That is a part of their journey, and there is distance for them to go.

There are others who actually do achieve the state many seek in this physical reality, only because they have traveled the path longer or through more journeys of choice.

Consciousness is actually unconsciousness or subconsciousness. Meta-consciousness, or beyond the conscious and the observation of the conscious world, is available to all, yet difficult to maintain because the physical world simply isn't designed to handle it.

And as I referenced "agreements" and "choices" ... An agreement can be made long before the physical events manifest; the same with a "choice." A 10-year-old can make a choice that will affect his physical existence at the age of 45.

Forget linear time and space; think not only outside the box, but beyond it.

Still, I'm an ongoing lurker and enjoy your perceptions and lessons a great deal.

Robert

Hi Bai Ming Sheng - I suspect this is a complex semantical discussion where we agree more than we disagree conceptually. I have found that there really are usually not more than about 6 or 7 points when we can check out, due to us being in harmony with the life force most of the time, whether we know it or not. (Even villains love their own life, even if they don't love others!) I did quite a bit of research many years ago, and was known as "someone who knows." But it is one of the two things I NEVER discuss with anyone. Yes, I can see a probable time of death, but it doesn't really matter. What matter is how a person LIVES up to the check out time.

"Death" as it is defined by science of body function means cessation of heart function. That is death. If our physical heart no longer beats, the body dies. Period, no exceptions. Spirit never dies, but all forms pass away. Whether one believes in spending time in "Devachan" or whether one ascribes to the Tibetan philosophy that reincarnation is immediate, the old form changes, and I can assure you, the physical body rots and smells to high heaven when the Spirit leaves, unless you're a Yogananda.

Yes, physical death is an ending, and also a beginning of remembrance of the state we always ARE. While physical reality is relatively miniscule in the larger scheme of things, and truly is only a projection of a thought form utilizing the Law of Magnetic Attraction to gather "chitta" until our multiple visible and invisible "bodies" manifest, it's still a pretty big deal for those of us with 5 senses and a perceptual bias.

I have found that time is not really a creation of anything, but rather the means by which our perceptions measure movement through experience. And of course you're right in that each moment is both a leaving and an entry point to eternity.

We are told from ancient sources that Light is ALL. Darkness exists only in the absence of light, thus is essentially impermanent, unless we're discussing the Great Pralaya of "Parambram" which is actually nothingness. Mostly in our 4 dimensional world, darkness is produced by light hitting a dense field. Remove the density, and there is no shadow, only infinite spaciousness and luminosity. This is the "noumena" of the Greeks, "agni" of the Vedas, as well as "kriya." These are eternal, omnipresent, and beyond impermanence, since they are permanence Itself. There is a level beyond duality, so I don't agree with the "yin-yang" assertion of "no male without female." Up and down are spacial references, and there is light without darkness, just not in this dualistic world. As for karma and dharma, we seem to have a definitional issue, since they are not directly related per se. Karma is one thing, karma is another thing, and Dharma is beyond both, though both are within the field of Dharma.

There can be no life experience without the experiencer. It cannot be, since there can be no experience without the one who is experiencing. Thus the one is completely dependent on the other. The experiencer conditions the experience. Yes, others are often affected by another's experience, but that is a passive state, whereas the experiencer is in a dynamic state, whether they perceive it or not. And of course, disabilities are often a test of compassion of one who experiences the presence of the disabled, though they can never actually know the experience. Like men CANNOT know what it's like to be pregnant with a being inside them, other than parasites. It's just not the same thing.

I'm glad you can reference all Dharma as positive. I'm not sure several million Jews would agree with your assessment of Hitler's or Stalin's dharma. Or the Campucheans with Pol Pot's dharma. Karma is not negative. It is intensely positive, in that it is the positive result of all action and nonaction that precipitates further reactions on the parts of humanity. Action is positive. Reaction is negative. Karma can be both, but usually it is the positive effect of a person's prior actions, thoughts, and feelings, whether the being was positive or negative in intention.

As for consciousness - in the human zones of existences, we are told there is subconsciousness, self consciousness, and superconsciousness. I believe when you speak of metaconsciousness you're actually referencing Superconsciousness. Again, semantics. And of course I agree that agreements can be made subconsciously that only show results years down the road. This has been a great discussion. Thanks.

Bai Ming Sheng

Robert...

Yup. Just different perspectives of the same window.

Bai Ming Sheng

Robert

Hi Bai Ming Sheng - You stimulated a great discussion with lots of food for thought. Thanks.

WarriorLady

Please don't take offense to anything that I write.

But-- and this is just my heartfelt opinion-- I don't consider suicide an evil behavior. At times, it can be sudden and dramatic and heartbreaking news to hear, especially if we lose a loved one to suicide. Yet it happens for countless reasons that many will never understand... because we're stuck in our own shoes.

I don't find a sudden exit from life, even if it involves voluntary destruction of the body, any worse than, say, the manifestation of an illness and an unwillingness to fight for one's life. Regardless of how humans choose to leave our planet, many choose to leave a certain way... and we shouldn't judge them or question them.

My sibling passed away from complications of an illness that he/she kept hidden from our family... for fear of hurting our already ailing mother. And maybe for other reasons as well. It could have been treated, likely cured. But he chose to leave in this manner, and even if it was the most hurtful loss to handle, I still consider his decision brave and selfless and I respect and love him unconditionally. (And I can never write about this, or talk about it, without shedding tears.)

Celebrities like Kurt Cobain as well, who've been put on medications from the time that they are children, grow up with... emotional turmoil.

Do any of these things make those who commit suicide "evil"? I don't believe so. Worse, to me, are those who live a life of indulgence, committing evil act after evil act, corrupting others around them and spreading their energies without a single care for our planet.

I cannot deem those who can't handle our global evil... "evil". I don't have the heart to do so when I, too, have suffered in the hands of despair and hopelessness in the midst of it all. Even if I'm still standing...

Valerie

It's interesting how this blog evolved into a discussion about suicide... Edgar Cayce said that suicide was a selfish act, in certain cases. Such as from pride or losing face. But if it comes of desperation, such as a painful illness, I don't know if that's selfish. Men of wisdom will be chewing over this for eternity. I think it would boil down to a private matter between the soul and God. But if it's escaping from your responsibilities (like Hitler, for example), that's another story. You'll have to pay the piper one day.

Robert

Hi WarriorLady - I checked, and don't think I ever equated the qualities I believe are "evil" with suicide. Not all suicides are selfish, nor futile. But many suicides are self-annihilation of the body before the personality has learned what it came to learn. The problem with most suicides is that though the body is dead, the astral and mental bodies are not, and these can create mischief in the months or years between the time of suicide and the time when the collaboration of birth chart and Divine Self knows it's time to leave the Earth. These sorts of suicide create very difficult karmas in future physical manifestations.

I believe we CAN learn the many reasons for taking oneself out, and since we all have to learn all the feelings there are for humans to feel, I believe we can put ourselves in another's shoes. That's the Pisces in all of us. We all have felt what all will feel across lifetimes. Even in the case of noble suicides, while it seems a noble sentiment to give one's life for another's, from one point of view espoused by a great Master of the Wisdom, we must never believe another's life is more important than our own due to sentimentality.

I always question whether a given action or non-action is "necessary," since leaving the Earth while there is still potential to achieve the good, true, and beautiful is a waste of good human flesh and years of training, so to speak. I cannot comment on whether it was "good" to keep your mom from the opportunity to deepen her connection with her child through being able to share the mutual grief at the impending death of that being. I'd be pretty frustrated if my daughter (or wife, or sister, or brother...) didn't tell me we had only a few moments left in this world, but that's just me. I also cannot say whether any "disease" can or cannot be cured, since that seems to be part of the Divine Mystery between our hologram and this impermanent reality. I'm just glad you're choosing to love that being unconditionally. To me that's what matters most.

I do agree with you that those who do "evil" acts are definitely not good. But still, for someone to leave prematurely when there is more good to do and more love to learn and express is not a good thing either. It creates a karmic tendency to check out early in future incarnations, which is unnecessary and deprives the world of potential good. In my own experience with hundreds of bereaved parents, many of whom are drowning in despair, my counsel has been that "just because your child died doesn't mean you have to die as well." There are many things that can impel us to consider suicide, from losing a job/home to breaking up with a husband/wife or boy/girlfriend to the death of a loved one. But that doesn't mean we should follow through on it, since by choosing a greater love of one's life we can come to BE a greater good in our world, turning grief into meaningful action. But again, I don't know how I would respond if I were a human vegetable suffering beyond description with only a few months to live. Perhaps I'd choose to check out before the last day, maybe not. Again, a decision to be thrashed out between my lower self and Higher Self at that time.

Hi Valerie - While I didn't intend this article to go in this direction (since I don't consider suicide to be evil, rather misguided use of force) it's still good to consider some of what's been raised here. I agree with Edgar Cayce's view. It is a "private matter" between the lower self and the Higher Self. And I agree that no one escapes the LAW. What is recorded must be fulfilled. The only exceptions are when Divine Grace plays a part in neutralizing karmas, or when we genuinely transform and lift our Eternal Golden Thread out of the muck into the Sun for a long enough time that the old karmas fall away like yesterday's memories.

WarriorLady

I appreciate your response, greatly. Just wanted to express that I don't label such an act with any adjective since it is almost impossible to do so when it is a loved one that one loses.
Yes, there is frustration and anger... and numerous other emotions in the mix. But unconditional love, like our spirit, never dies, and there is great comfort in knowing this.

"But still, for someone to leave prematurely when there is more good to do and more love to learn and express is not a good thing either."

No such thing as "prematurely" to me. I've had to learn that through my experiences and those of others, and that's why it is so, so important to appreciate our loved ones while we can. But I sincerely respect your perspective on this subject and thank you for your input.

When we lose someone we love with all our heart, it opens doors to new and bigger experiences. And other painful matters seem trivial and easier to get over. Possibilities are always blurry at first-- in fact, it took me about two years to "get it"-- but this is the truth. Think of how many beings have expressed pain but also light through their creative works. A great deal of genius and strength comes from the agony of such a loss. Thus, the deceased continue to flood the earth with light from wherever they are.

I'll agree that there is always more good to do on this planet. However, I believe that it is even more important to do our best within the present moment, for it is what we truly have in our hands.

Thank you, again.

WarriorLady

Robert, on a side note, in part of your reply to Rachel (above), suicide was grouped with murder, Pedophilia and other evil behaviors. I may have misinterpreted the following line:

"I wouldn't group schizophrenia, autism, and other severe brain "disorders" with murder, pedophilia, suicide, and the other evil behaviors we choose to indulge in."

Please keep in mind that I am not angry or hurt by it. I respect your opinion, have simply ingested it as I'd read it... and attempted to seek compassion for those who elect to leave our planet via suicide. That is all.

Do disregard if my interpretation is incorrect. Thanks.

Deborah Allin

Thanks Warrior Lady for putting your view which is that someone else's suicide may bring learning and healing for those left.

Some souls have such serious suffering and are so bent out of shape or have their minds and emotions twisted by early abuse that they can experience a pain that feels overwhelming. Sure they had something to learn but what if they never met a caring person who could ever truly mirror their soul and find out the truth that they were NOT BAD just loaded with the toxic evil (unconsciousness of others). Some people never find a way back.

Its a complex question and one with no easy answers. Who are we to judge? Did we walk in their shoes?

Deborah

WarriorLady

Although very hard to see at first, these kinds of experiences teach us to love in a way far beyond what we could ever imagine... Unconditionally.

Thanks, Deborah. You hit it right on the button.

Robert

Hi WarriorLady - Truly, thanks for pointing out the inconsistency. Though I didn't equate suicide with other, obviously evil behaviors in the main text, I realized when I reread my comments above that I had in an answer. I probably should not have grouped that particular behavior with the others, though "wrong use of force" is still not good under any circumstances.

Suicide is one of the toughest things to endure, since it leaves many unanswered questions. I've lost way too many of my closest friends over the years to all kinds of suicide, and in every case it led to unfortunate results, both for the departed (since their astral and mental bodies didn't dissolve at death, requiring some measure of "ghost busting") as well as those of us left behind, wondering why they did such a thing.

While we may love them without conditions, I will always question the necessity of the (ultimately) futile act of killing the body if there is anything good left to do. While I admire your obvious compassion, I do accept that some things in this world are premature. Humans do jump the gun at times due to imperfect knowledge. And if there is prematurity in some things, then there must be prematurity in other things as well.

I agree that the death of our loved ones may inspire great works. The only reason I wrote "Love Dad" was because my daughter came and went. Originally I had no intention of ever turning it into a book, but eventually other bereaved parents who were helped by some of what I expressed encouraged me to do so. And of course, you're spot on when you say it is "important to do our best within the present moment, for it is what we truly have in our hands." As I've taught for many years, "If not now, when? If not here, where?"

Hi Deborah - In esoteric psychology, it is put forth that everything that happens to a being before the age of 21 is a mirror of karmas from past lives, leading to the same relationship between the Soul and personality at 21 as it was when we last checked out. Therefore "early abuse" must be a factor in Soul development resulting from Karmic LAW, since the LAW is everything. There can be no error in the LAW, which perfectly mirrors what has been so that what could be may come forth. I'm not saying that the abused have abused another in a past life. Maybe the abused chose those potential circumstances (the abuser always having free will not to abuse) to become more compassionate toward those who suffer. There are many reasons a being goes through certain karmic circumstances, and sometimes it's not linear.

I believe that at given points all beings are given a different example so they may choose a better way and move out of old circumstances that only perpetuate suffering. It may be the hardest thing a being does, but still, those opportunities are there, even from an early age. A person chooses not to find a way back. For those who seek, an answer is always given. That is an eternal Truth.

As for your final questions, those with training in any field are forced by Dharma to judge in each circumstance they confront. We do not have to walk in another's shoes to know what to do or not to do. Example: I do not need to be a schizophrenic or bipolar to know what it looks like. I do not need to go to war to know it's destructive of human life and dignity, having been a warrior in other lifetimes. The memory is still there, though in this life the immediate experience isn't. Again, that's the Pisces in us all. With knowledge comes responsibility, which means judging, whether we are doctors, lawyers, teachers, psychologists, masons, cooks, carpenters, musicians, scientists, or whatever.

Ultimately, all judgment sharpens our Divine Discrimination, so that we may know the unreal from the Real, darkness from Light, and untruth from Truth. Judgment is also necessary to cultivate what the Tibetan Master calls our "glamor dispelling mechanism," so that we do not fall prey to that particular world problem.

caliban

There is much written about desire. There is much written about fear. But to see the two words next to each other . . . a window of understanding opens. It addresses a question I've been pondering concerning the lengths gone to, and the motivation.

These words are my clumsy way once again of saying thank you for an opening. Perhaps philosophizing is essential.

caliban

From first hand experience, about suicide . . . if you don't get it, if it seems confusing, uncomprehensible, out of the range of rationalization no matter how many times you play it in your head looking for a reason, consider yourself fortunate. I am convinced that you have to be suicidal to understand it. And I hope you are among the fortunate, cuz suicide is really the worst crime a person can commit because of those left behind with the terminal question why that can never be answered. It is what it is. Losing a loved one by suicide was the most horrendous experience I have every had. All I could do was continue on. And it took everything I had.

Robert

Hi caliban - Welcome to an old, but ongoing, discussion. Desire and fear are indeed linked in this human reality, though the first can sometimes lead to good when detachment balances desire, while fear is a destructive, dangerous, and ultimately useless response. Sometimes there is no "reason" for suicide, and even when there is a "reason," suicide still makes no sense, since destroying the body makes no sense to a life-affirming consciousness. I was somewhat suicidal as a teenager and young man, in that I entertained destructive thoughts like jumping out of high windows, doing extreme substances and then indulging in equally extreme and potentially fatal behaviors, and other such youthful foolishness. But I always knew that somehow it would not end my suffering, and would lead to bad results (even when I didn't have a clue about karma or reincarnation!) I also learned that no matter how deep the despair, if I just slept on it and postponed the decision to tomorrow, the despair would pass to whatever degree and there were always new perspectives to embrace. And you're right, in that with each suicide of a friend or loved one I've had to endure, life goes on without missing a beat, there are always unanswered questions among the living left behind who loved the one who committed suicide, and there are no easy answers to such a thing.

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