A Recent Dialog With An Atheist About Whether Prayer Works

by Robert Wilkinson

I was on a political comment stream recently and the discussion turned to the unlikely subject of whether prayer works, and whether God can move a speck of dust without resorting to “external, mechanical (non-Godly) means.” Of course I had to put my 2 cents in. Today I offer you a few pieces from that dialog.

Up to this point in the dialog, A (short for atheist) refused to accept there is any such thing as God, and that praying to a being is useless. He made the point that no one has ever demonstrated that prayer or God achieves any result that is measurable in the “real world.” Someone came in and defended prayer by speaking of its calming effects, and how prayer can lead us to a state of mind that is helpful, generous, kind, and productive of a better world. Here’s what followed:

A – “_____, you're talking about meditation. I'm glad that works for you, but my sister achieves the same thing without believing in God.”

My response: “A, I've heard it said that prayer is putting a thought form out there (whether to a "god" or not), whereas meditation is about listening, receptivity, and occasionally contemplation. We certainly can agree that thought forms make a difference, whether spoken or unspoken, since they are the basis of potential and actual action. And you're right in that whether a person believes in "God" - by whatever name or non-name - has nothing to do with whether a thought form is effective. Some prayers are, some aren't.”

A – “I don't dispute the calming effects of meditation. But.. Healing the sick? I prayed that the quarter would come up heads, and it did it *three times in a row* I mean, what more proof does any atheist need?!?”

Me – “Actually, 4th wave medicine as practiced by more than a few legit MDs seem to show the ability to diagnose disease at a distance with no direct contact with the patient. Remote viewing, while not 100% replicable under all conditions, has been demonstrated more than a few thousand times by more than a few thousand people."

While healing the sick comes in many forms, autosuggestion has been proved to be a "cure" for many ailments, as have other mental disciplines like NLP. Those are thought forms. As for flipping coins, that's probability, though I have seen people able to make a pendulum held by another swing clockwise, counterclockwise, back and forth, or stay still with no words or physical gestures to cue the person holding the pendulum."

"The mind is capable of many things. Prayer is just the name many give to thought forms, and again, I agree that many so-called prayers have no effect whatsoever on material circumstances.”

A - “Like I said. Let God move a speck of dust by one millimeter absolutely unaccountable by physical forces. What's that, a thousandth of an erg? Then I'll believe."

Me – “If we separate Nature and its forces from "God" then no proof is possible since "all that is" occurs in the natural world for evaluation by our 5 senses and our minds. I've never understood why most who believe in the Bible somehow see "God," Nature, and humanity somehow at odds with each other, separate from each other, and unreconcilable as a co-existant harmony of forces that we've given name and form to. Strange mythology. Though I believe "God" has been overly anthromorphosized, I cannot separate Nature from "All-That-Is," which some could argue is one definition of "God."

Again, I've seen applied thought forms by humans do things that had no other obvious explanation. If we go with non-obvious, yet to be discovered "causes" as somehow apart from our power to create thought forms, then it's all speculation since we have no means to evaluate that which is not yet known.

While the entity most believe is "God" probably doesn't exist except in their own minds (anthromorphic thinking is a common disease of the mind), we cannot deny the existence of Nature, with its laws and constructs and conditions, some of which have already been demonstrated as being beyond our previous conceptions of God, Nature, and the human mind.

While my belief and knowledge of transcendent things goes far beyond what I could express in this brief exchange, I felt that the few things I could bring up might be worthy of contemplation. HPB always felt that prayer, as it was practiced in the 19th century, weakened the Divine Will within us, since it puts the power of achievement in the hands of an external power. But it could be equally said that prayer and meditation align our ego-will with a Higher Spiritual Will within which we live and breathe and have our being.

And if we regard a prayer as a thought form, then it’s not hard to see that some prayers would be more effective than others, just like thought forms. Especially if the prayer focuses our intention to be a greater Way, Truth, and Life. Then, whether we know it or not, we’re just praying that our lower self gets the higher picture so that we can cooperate with a Divine Intention that already exists in the Higher Planes and which merely need grounding through our thought forms.

Anyway, I figured I’d open a door for a brief moment in this time of “the in betweens.” If you want a little more about my take on such things as prayer, meditation, and thought forms, please check out the article I wrote back in February, Prayer, Meditation, Affirmations, and Thought Forms – What’s The Difference?

© Copyright 2012 Robert Wilkinson

Comments

[dcu]

An excellent take on an important subject. I am so glad to know that those Christian Taliban folks that are praying for tree huggers like me to burn in hell may not be effective. (Grin)

[Mary]

I have never read HPB, but I have come to agree with her idea as stated in your article. As the saying goes, "Trust in Allah, but tether your camel." (Probably a westernized paraphrasing of a more complex idea.) For me this sums up Right Thought combined with Right Action.

Is prayer Einstein's "spooky action" or the "law of attraction"? If a person prays for X, and the results fall short, is that because the essence of the felt-idea manifests? And is that why we should be careful what we wish for?

In trying to understand God/Nature, I imagine a tree's perspective. I don't know if a tree prays for rain or sun, but I do know a tree will spread its roots and branches as far as it can to obtain what it needs to fulfill its imperative to be "more." (My plumbing bills vouch for that.)

[BritLitChik]

I am always disturbed by the term "atheist". I find it very hard to believe that folks who are self-proclaimed ahteists have never been moved spiritually in any way - simple things, like trying to explain why the cat knows when you're sick, how you can feel someone watching you even when you can't see them, knowing your kids are in trouble even when there is no apparent indication - it seems to me that atheists spend more time expounding on that which they demand "proof" and forget all the little things around them that occur daily give an enormous amount of the proof they seek if they would open themselves to the spiritual world a bit.

It certainly sounds as though A has a very specific idea of what "God" is that A can reject so outwardly and succinctly. I wonder what other parts of A's world are that black and white. These types of folks are really no different than the fundamental Christians who take "God" and "the Bible" so literally that they, too, are ruled by black and white; when words and actions don't match their "beliefs", well, their pat answer is that "we're all sinners" so they can still fall within the walls of their deity as well.

I generally feel very sorry for folks who are so militant in any belief - by definition those people who live that way are so sure things are the way they believe that over time they tend to lose the ability to discern incoming information that might help them live a better and happier life. Very sad.

Hopefully, as the Age of Aquarius approaches, we will see more openness to things that are different, and become more open to and connected with our environment and everything here on Earth and beyond.

[Robert]

Hi all - We should be careful what we wish for since along with the Law of Attraction there is also the Law of Unintended Consequences. If all the life forms in our world exist simultaneously, whether visible or invisible, then perhaps plants "know" their Oneness with water, and live "contentedly" as long as there's enough, and die a slow death if there's not.

Most of the atheists I've known are cynical and make a religion of "no religion," worship a god of "no god," and have a philosophy based in negation. This of course can never lead to fulfillment other than with the material creation as they cling to it.

Their devotion consists of insisting that all forms of faith are simple-mindedness and/or superstition, and it seems a universal quality that they elevate their version of "reason" above all other yardsticks of measuring the magic of life. Because "reason" is the weak pole of the lower mind, they are often desire-driven (desire being the strong pole of the lower mind), and seldom rise above the intellect (weak pole of the Higher Mind) into any form of oneness with All-That-Is.

Oneness and a sense of harmony with All-That-Is cannot be attained through a fundamentally separative approach to the unity of life. That's why I attempt to dialog with atheists using Nature and Her processes as metaphors for a transcendent unity of life beyond mechanical processes, even though mechanical processes of course exist in Nature.

The Age of Aquarius will move us beyond "belief v doubt" dichotomies, into a synthesized awareness of the interrelatedness of all apparently material forms existing in a unified field of electromagnetic energy. If all is composed of light particles and waves, then all is unified by its "light-ness." Even atheists and fundamentalists. It's their density that's the problem, since it mistakes the form for the essence.