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Comments

RodJM

Hi Robert,

I often wondered about the case of Saturn in Aquarius, being its traditional ruler but nowadays, Uranus is the ruler of this sign. So what if someone is born with Saturn in Aquarius, that is after the discovery of Uranus in the 18th century? Would Saturn still be the final dispositor?

Elise

Is the Ascendent on the chart to be read in this way as well?

Using my chart:

Libra Asc
Venus in Sagittarius
Jupiter in Aquarius
Saturn in Sagittarius

So by the Ascendent would my whole chart colored by the Saturn/Jupiter mutual reception?

The only other dispositor in my chart is Mars/Pluto in Scorpio. Would have a stellium (Mercury, Saturn, Uranus, Venus, Sun) in Sagittarius give more weight to the Aquarian flavor of the chart? Or does having Saturn (some people read Uranus as Aquarius too, correct?) in Sagittarius give it a more Sagittarian flavor?

Thanks kindly!

debbie

Interesting, will read again another time I dont have much grasp of this area, but mars is square natal uranus while merc opposing, my mind has got "tigger syndrome" boinging all over the place and focus is just a myth right now lol!

Robert

Hi Rod - Well, the old rulerships didn't just end simply because we found some new planets! That's why I make the distinction between worldly rulers and spiritual rulers. Saturn is the worldly ruler of Capricorn and Aquarius, while Uranus is the spiritual ruler of those signs. Jupiter is the worldly ruler of Sag and Pisces, while Neptune is the spiritual ruler of both. Mars is the worldly ruler of Scorpio and Aries, while Pluto is the spiritual ruler of those signs. Yes, I believe that Uranus rules Capricorn, Neptune rules Sagittarius, and most definitely have found Pluto to rule Aries!

And because they are all transpersonal planets, they don't really operate in worldly realms except through their respective "lower octave" planets; Uranus through Mercury, Neptune through Venus, and Pluto through Mars. At least, that's what I learned back at the beginning. Never found it not to work, even though the octave relationships have different proponents, like Heindel. I probably would have assigned Jupiter as the lower octave to Neptune, but that's way beyond the scope of what we're talking about.

hi debbie - Yes, but it's a great time for inspired thinking, or the ability to read/write some things very quickly!! Innovate, let the ideas come forth in a flood, and then put them all together when Mercury is RX in Aquarius.

Robert

Hi Elise - Your comment got lost before I found it. The mutual reception is the ruling loop for your planets except for Mars/Pluto. It is an independent self-reinforcing relationship between Jupiter and Saturn within you. You have a lot of Sag, including your light, mind, relations, duties, and genius. That's the primary energy of expression. Behind that, the ruler Jupiter brings a backdrop of Aquarian energy to that Sag expression. It's as though your primary key is G sharp, but you're weaving in notes from the key of A sharp as a backdrop quality to the song. While Saturn and Uranus have Capricorn/Aquarius qualities, if they're in Sag, that's how they express those qualities.

adriana

Hi Robert,
does it change if one of the two planets in mutual reception is retrograde? And does the aspect they make to each other influence something- E.g. what happens when they are inconjunct or opposite(by sign or by aspect)?
saturn leo 29°, sun capricorn 29°; venus cap 28°, mars in leo 2°, asc leo 1°
Thank you.

Robert

Hi adriana - No, retrogrades merely show function, not foreground/background. The dialog in a play is an entirely different thing than the set design. And yes, aspects do influence their function. I discuss that briefly in part 2 coming tomorrow.

Oppositions create tugs of war, butting heads, see-saw motion, or awareness through understanding both poles of the opposition. Your oppositions can be resolved via illuminated gracious mature organized self-adjustment (Sun/Venus in Cap in 6th). The Sun quincunx Saturn usually shows that you must adjust to the authorities and systems in which you find yourself, with the light showing you how to structure your mature heart energy, and your fears showing you how to take the power. Growth is through healthy Gemini and Pisces function.

So your whole life, when confronted with adjustments required by the system, or men, or those in power, you need to see many different ways to communicate, many different approaches to group or collective situations, and a lot of compassion, as well learning when you're getting signs and signals showing something is about to end.

Elise

Thank you Robert. I think I understand.

One more question, if you have a moment. Do you read the angles on the chart in terms of dispositorship as well? Are the Ascendant and Midheaven flavored by the location of the ruling energy?

RodJM

Hi Robert,

Thanks for clearing that up. However, I was meditating on this concept and wondered about the case of Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Virgo and Libra.
Do they have higher octave (spiritual) rulers like the rest of the signs?

As I mentioned above about Saturn in Aquarius (which I have in my natal chart), and if I (or anyone else) has Capricorn Asc. and no other planets in there own sign of rulership, It would be safe to say, Saturn is the final dispositor of my natal chart? Apart from that, Venus in Virgo and Mercury in Libra make a mutual reception even though they don't actually aspect each other (42 degrees separation)

Hope this helps others in interpreting natal charts!

Thanks & much appreciated.

debbie

thanks Robert will do!

Robert

Hi Elise - Yes, the ruler of the Ascendant is of prime importance in how the self expresses itself at any given time in life. It is often the "hyleg," or "giver of life," along with any planet in the first, according to the old texts. The sign and house of the ruler of the MC shows where the public/professional focus is, though of course this is only one factor in that arena, even if it is important.

Hi Rod - First, the easy answer! Yes, Saturn is A final dispositor in your chart, with Mercury and Venus in MR being the other "final dispositor" that operates independently of your Saturn (since neither of them reference it in your natal map.) Also 42 degrees, depending on the speed each is moving (are they forming or separating?) is usually a novile or semisquare. You will see them in operation as a dual pulse of activity each time they are aspected by another planet.

As for the spiritual rulers of the signs. Yes, but all of this is my unique work of almost 40 years. I know of no one else in the world who has done this sort of investigation. I plan to offer a class on this via webinar, since I believe it's crucial to understanding what we will find and learn to master as we walk our Higher Way.

My findings stem from something that piqued my curiosity around 1975-76 which I've developed since then. In 1973 my friend Carl Payne Tobey wrote about Pluto being the "true" ruler of Aries, and not Scorpio. He also posited planet Y (as he termed it) for the ruler of Taurus, and planet Z for the ruler of Gemini.

Carl didn't get into the worldly v spiritual rulers of the signs. That's entirely me, trying to resolve the FACT that Jupiter was ruler of Pisces for as long as western Astrology has existed, and then by some strange magic poofery Jupiter no longer ruled Pisces, and instead Neptune did. I figured that was impossible. Saturn ruled Aquarius from antiquity through the 18th century, and then not since? Ridiculous notion!!

I did take a look at the rulers of antiquity, and one half of the signs perfectly mirrors the other half of the signs and their rulers. Carl's original work noted that after Saturn and Capricorn "they" placed Uranus as ruling Aquarius and Neptune as ruling Pisces. Carl felt that should imply Pluto ruling Aries, which I can absolutely agree with, given what things in this world Pluto actually does symbolize, like seeds, spring cleaning, etc.

But if you simultaneously place Pluto in both Aries and Scorpio, it creates an interesting set of voids where it's easy to see how Uranus and Neptune fit easily into Cap and Sag, with TransPluto ruling Taurus and Libra. And throughout the 40 year journey of discovery, I've tried to stay open to how these things can be expanded and clarified without getting too comfortable in what I've already found.

Carl also set me to investigating the "Leo clockwise" chart system, which led me to some very intriguing insights about house-sign associations. The clockwise system was prominent in a ancient zodiacs, and it is hinted in the Secret Doctrine that the counterclockwise system was promoted so that would-be astrologers of the times didn't do more damage than they already did in their profound ignorance. It seems entering the Kali Yuga required some prophylactic measures! And of course, all this is subject material for articles and classes if enough people are interested......

RodJM

Hi Robert,

Thanks for the comprehensive response, much appreciated indeed.
I'll pickup more in your second article on this no doubt, but to throw a cat amongst the pigeons (so to speak), if my natal Mercury conjunct Sun (Libra) which in turn trines Saturn and that trines NN in Gemini, one could say a grand air trine, albeit from a spiritual perspective because of the NN. Complicating this is Uranus/Pluto/Venus/MC conjunction...

I'm really into evolutionary astrology big time! Its the only way that I can get satisfactory answers as to the "why" of human behavior and motivations... but to me it has to be an observable phenomenon even amongst non-believers...

debbie

Actually your comment is even more relevant having just felt the need to look at my progressed chart only to see that progressed Sun/Merc/BML are all conjunct natal Uranus and progressed Uranus/Nth node are conjunct Natal Mars, while progressed Mars is conjunct progressed MC, sooo that all simply emphasises why I am so much more open to really out there ideas that actually resonate in some known yet unknown manner. Only sharing so you can feel some sympathy for those I am currently staying with lol!

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