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Thanks for this fascinating look at the spiritual dimensions, Robert... well said!
I understand them as concentric, that is, as a continually undulating current in which all the planes flow and ebb simultaneously..... as a pebble tossed into a smooth lake creates a concentric wave........

I have heard that there are more dimensions ("mansions") than seven as well.... beyond Anami Lok?

Hope you are keeping well and my very best to you... (btw, tciitm :-)

With Love, D. } ----*


Hi Diana - I forgot to mention that the entire 7 planes of our existence are merely the seven sub-planes of the Cosmic Physical, so yes, there are mansions beyond our ability to describe. I tried once in a song. I may try to find it to post.


thoughts are things that become real....

great article.. i'll have to read this again later.


Fascinating issue!
I always love this Seven Planes division.
In Yoga we very much deal with it.

You can feel if you train too, our etheric, astral, mental and maybe spirit auras or bodies.
And yes, there is also etheric or energetic plane, between physical and astral.
Chakras relate also to planes. First three to physical or astral, then mental then to other spiritual planes

And what about the seven sub planes of mental plane? 4th one as spiritual thoughts, 2th one as watery, more unstable thoughts and so on...?

The Buddic fourth plane is also the plane of Intuition right?

Do you also know about the seven desnities frequently found on channeled material as the one by Ra (LLresearch) or others?
They state we are (I refer to channeling highly spiritual group entities), humans are on 3rd density. They 4th density would be the density of love with more fluid timespace, 5th of wisdom, 6th of wisdom/love balance and 7th of unity with the creation and the eternal timelessness.


I read now also your other fascinating article on the science of the rays, from Alice Bailey.
I very much liked Alice Bailey.

Do you usually consider things from an esoteric persperctive when doing readings?
I am now starting studying the rays and correlations with the planets and signs.

Did Alice Bailey used sideral or tropical astrology? What did he advice? I am currently seeing the fantastic world that lies between these two systems! It seems both are real, and this is just part of the incredible illusion of our reality and the zodiac circle!

I love astrology and love these fascinating approaches!


Hi robyn - Yes, thoughtforms do acquire substance if we are clear and persistent. That's why it's very important to be clear about what we're saying and why!

Hi irpsit - The "etheric" plane is actually a combo of the higher subplanes of the physical. 7 chakras = 7 planes. Spot on! Yes to the subplanes of the mental, as well as the Buddhic being the plane of true Intuition, since it's the plane of Soul and Heart. I don't really read any channeled material except Alice Bailey and Helena Roerich, so I'm not familiar with the one you cite. I tend to go with "source material," rather than anything of recent vintage.

In the wisdom tradition I know, Love-Wisdom is the quality of the 2nd Ray. I believe egoic beings are more-or-less centered in the kama manas, or desire mind. Those who aspire are dealing with identifying with the Higher Mind, or Higher Ego, though are still not necessarily under "Soul control," as we put it, though occasionally that beams through. So the 3rd density as I understand it is that of Mind, 4th density is Soul, 5th density is Spirit, 6th Density is Personal God, and 7th density is Unknowable Source. Of course, words fail to adequately describe what are states beyond words.

I don't do the form of "Esoteric Astrology" as AAB gave it, as there is too much else to go into. I have my own technique for identifying an individual's physical ray, emotional ray, mental ray, personality ray, group ray, and so forth. There has been some debate about whether to use Tropical or Sidereal, with most leaning toward Sidereal. That said, I put NO faith in Sidereal, for several valid reasons. I believe it's as inaccurate from a constellational angle as Tropical, though some astrologers, such as the great Cyril Fagan, could do some pretty amazing stuff with Sidereal. I just don't accept it as more accurate than Tropical.


I hope this is Ok to do,to promote something,but it is so on topic! My teacher and her co-worker in the esoteric sciences just published a book called Astrology Illumined - revealing Soul through astrology by Donna Mitchell Moniak/Sara Traub.
This is based on the Bailey approach to esoteric astrology, as a means to see the path of the Soul. They relate the planets to the rays, and have an esoteric level of rulership of the signs. I am not well versed in all this, being pretty much an astrolgical beginner, but have seen this work applied to help people understand their spiritual path, and spiritual challenges and life lessons. It takes intuition to know what level to read for someone though, mundane vs. spiritual, the astrologer needs to intuit the point on the path.


Hi Tamara - Glad to hear some are furthering the work of the Tibetan, since there is a lot to digest in the thousands of pages of His work. Something you said raises a key issue in my experience. While intuition can be useful in approaching charts, I believe one should approach Astrology, the celestial science, with utmost reverence for its analytical approach to "all that is." I believe that the more one trains one's brain in the foundations of precise chart analysis through "critical thinking" techniques, the less one is able to be seduced by plausible but erroneous reasoning, which of course is a source for much suffering. While "True Intuition" is a great resource, the Art/Science of Astrology is best served by analysis, intelligence, and synthesis, since after all, it is THE 3rd Ray embodiment. When we master these, then we can allow Intuition to work its magic.

Those who know me know I have my own approach to what I believe is "spiritual" in a chart. I've studied a lot of source material, as well as derivative works, both astrological and spiritual. I believe that any who are interested in such topics should also read the original Alice Bailey text of "Esoteric Astrology." Of course, if you want to understand WHY we are doing all of this, there are other works to read first that are far more important spiritually than Esoteric Astrology. She and her Master were appealing to certain aptitudes. This is not the first or even second thing you want to study if you want to study such things, especially if you're not a professional astrologer.

I've always felt that we must reference the source, digesting it to our ability, before we can synthesize other material as otherwise we don't really know what the derivative is referencing. Without studying the source, we take on the assumptions of the derivative without knowing we're doing that. And of course, I'll try to find the book you recommend. It's a worthy work for anyone to take on, since interpreting the Tibetan's work is a fairly daunting task. Aum Mani Padme Hum.


Is Astrology really a 3rd Ray activity?
Curiously, I tend to approach issues on a 5th ray way, due to my Aqu/Sag. Master DK said he was a 2nd Ray higher Teacher (compared to for example Jesus, a 6th Ray Teacher).

I ask you, does any activity in life only has one ray influence, or can have more than one?

I REALLY agree with you. There is much to digest on Alice Baily books.

Robert: how do approach to uncover the soul ray of a person? By intuition? Mine feels like 2nd Ray. Since my deep essence fells all on a love/wisdom basis. I am Sag/Aqu rising and could I then consider a 5th Ray personality, or it could be another one?
And the Spirit?
Do you know of simple activities or exercises or meditations where one could uncover these Rays, Physical, Personality, Soul and Spirit ones?

On racial, national Rays its much more easy to see.
About the emotional and mental ones, I think I could with some meditation discover those quite easily.

Thanks much for all the input until now. I am still using Tropical but starting to work with Sideral. I haven't check DK position on this, but from other channeled sources, group spirit Ra states both are correct, that one is horizontal approach, the other (Sideral) vertical. One could approach more to the masculine or personality-liked side (Tropical), the other to feminine, more soul-based one (Sideral). But, both are and can be considered as working.

Therefore, I tend to start approaching things this way, a very complex way by the way.
I use mostly tropical for everyone but to me and my close ones I am attempting this complex approach. And also finding the Rays.


Hi irpsit - That was me who stated the 3rd Ray nature of Astrology. The problem with these comments is that the name is posted below the comment, but it appears above the next one, making it seem like the answer is the statement. More Mercury crashing into retrograde!

That said, yes, Astrology is the embodiment of the 3rd Ray, encompassing the 4, 5, 6, and 7th Ray energetics, synthesizing them into the craft. St. Issa (Jesu) is said to be the Master of the Devotional 6th Ray, whereas DK works with Hilarion in taking care of advanced students in various 5th Ray Knowledge disciplines. ALL Masters ultimately are on and serve the larger 2nd Ray Love-Wisdom work, since that is the main ray for our planet, as it is the Ray of the World Teacher. Almost all beings on Earth have a 2nd Ray Monad and the vast majority have 2nd Ray Souls.

Your 5th Ray approach does have to do with your Personality Ray, which is a synthesis of your Physical, Emotional, and Mental Rays. Of course, it may not be your main personality Ray, but rather one of the three with a temporary emphasis at this time in your life depending on your present personality work. There is no activity on Earth that is only a single Ray, since we are learning how to master all the energies, just different ones at different times. All outer activities are amalgams of at least three Rays which are the subrays of the synthesized work, whatever it is.

That's why I don't believe studying Esoteric Astrology is useful for most, since many take their Rays as static energies rather than fluid lessons in realization, application, and utilization. As for meditations to uncover one's Rays, yes, but that is a science in itself. I used to teach how to evaluate which Rays are most active on the various levels, but that is waaaaay beyond a comment stream.

I do not accept that Sidereal is more valid in classifying Soul material than Tropical. My clients will no doubt agree, since my approach is entirely Tropical, with a focus on the Soul-Personality dance. My work does serve to bring forth the Soul power in my clients and friends. The issue is not Tropical v Sidereal, it is that of the Soul quality of the Astrologer.

Using Sidereal poses quite a few problems. One primary issue is how many degrees to subtract from the Tropical positions? There are NO definitive guideposts here. I know of at least 4 schools of thought on the "true" Sidereal positions, all claiming validity, and the spread is quite dramatic, from 22-29 degrees. Each says their subtraction factor is THE true one, and discredit the other schools as erroneous. And regardless of how any school justifies their computations, I know of NO Sidereal school that takes into account the fact that there are 14 constellations, not 12. If one is using a strictly "constellational" approach, then one must use all 14 constellations, none of which are exactly 30 degrees. These are but two reasons why I use the Tropical approach. (And now you know why I don't post more on this, since it tends to create more confusion than clarification, being such a huge area of exploration!)


a friend of mine suggested this site and your work to further the studies of my own ideas of the universe, reality, and the consciousness and so far everything i've read on your site interests me and impresses me but i do wonder what your view is on acid at least in it's intial original state as the fungus ergot supposedly it was used as a tool to inspire creativity that great philosophers and innovators in similiar processes of witches with a cauldran mixing a stew of spells of some sort. Supposedly it causes a shift in your brain hence the new perspectives in all your senses and higher sense of spirituality or at least those who use it "properly". From my few experiences and new books i recieve from having the new age(containing from theology,religions outside christianity, philosophy,spiritualism, divination, astrology and mythology) i've started my ever growing research for my own interest of trying to make sense of it all and gain more perspectives. I just have to wonder what you think of with these collaborated ideas of philsophy, science, religion, and mysticism if you have also seen some sort of patterns involving ergot or anything similiar or if already dismissed or even if you've written somethings close to these notions i will read more no matter what but anything specific to lead to would be wonderful. I'm already amazed at your quick responses and care for this site and would be very thankful if you happened to have the time to respond. No matter what i will continue to appreciate your site. thank you -Alison


Hi Alison - Welcome to the cantina. I'll try to compose a thoughtful response in the next day or two, since you raise some interesting questions.


I wonder if there is a possibility to synthisize both sidereal and tropical astrology?

tropical astrology has more to the position of earth arond it self and the relation between the the seasons and plantery effects

while sidereal astrology has more to the fixed stars .

(im sort of channeling this information right now thogh it been on my mind for quite a time)

I think that both zodiacs can be synthesized , that is the position of the planets relative to the season, and the position of the the planets relative to the fixed stars and a possibly additonal ring for house thogh its not so important for esoteric astrology.

Maybe it has something to do with logoic evolution...


Hi Alison - Humanity's been self medicating since the beginning of time. Sometimes to heal the body, sometimes to open the doors of perception to other perspectives on our wonderful and strange reality. Different cultures had different attitudes about how these things should be done, in terms of ritual, timing, training, supervision, and "de-briefing" after the experience. I've seen a lot of wreckage done by careless use of many different things, from aspirin to acid to penicillin. Acid actually just unlocks chemicals in the brain that yield the experience. That's why some days are better to go into altered states than others, due to inner positioning relative to whatever is being examined. "Any time" is not necessarily the best time for going down certain rabbit holes. And it's usually a good idea to have someone to "captain" in case we lose our bearings. At some point, once you've explored the far side enough times with sufficient intention to "break on through to the other side," you realize Thou Art That, and can go into whatever altered state you need without resorting to external ego dis-structuring devices. Then it's just a question of anchoring the higher realizations into ways of living those realizations. "And the time will come when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you...."

Hi Dawn - Not really sure how it could be done due to different computations. We are the center of our chart timing device, since truly the chart is born when we are born. Otherwise it's just fluid time. I believe there is much to be explored relative to the fixed stars, but most need re-interpretation with more positive suggestions than those of antiquity. You may be on to something by the planets' relative position to the Solstices and Equinoctal points.

Logoic evolution may have a lot to do with our Sun's position relative to Sirius and boths' position relative to the Galactic Center, which is it's own larger Galactic field and perspective. But if we are a measure of the Divine Spark of the Logos, then Earth centered astrology must play a major part in our connect to Logos. Sounds like fertile ground for a life work! ;-)


Hello all,

Robert I am working on stimulating my Root, Sacral, and Navel Chakras. I have been doing 60 minutes of DVD Yoga in the morning for about three weeks.

In meditation and sounds- or the pronounciation of LAM, VAM, RAM, the "Mng" part is soft G or hard G?

The ah-hah is "you have to continously ground yourself" and that my Root Chakra is most under-active. Also what Yoga excercise is best for working with the root chakra?



Hi Don - Root chakra is best developed through karma yoga. Patience, discipline, organization, responsibility, higher sense of duty, maturity. Bring order out of chaos, use ordered activity to know any given discipline with flexibility and precision. Ask of the Universe what it wants of your gifts and skills in the future for the betterment of all sentient beings and then develop those over time, without haste or impatience. Decrease density and rigidity.


I think we should take the upcomoing full moon as an oppurtunity to observe the feeling of the moon.

accroding to tropical its in the sign of capricorn where the sun will be on Xmes , but according to Sidereal its in saggitarius .

I have a feeling we will experience saggitarius energy .


Hi Dawn - Well, when consulting Vedic "experts" in the past, it seemed like mid and late Pisces traits are very much like early and mid-Aries traits as described in Tropical, and that Sidereal mid and late Cancer traits are a lot like early and mid Leo traits in Tropical. I can't really accept a "feel" about things as definitive, since it's too subjectively swayed, much like consulting pendulums. Then there is the problem that auto-suggestion leads one to search for manifestations of what one is looking for regardless of evidence to the contrary. There must be some way to quantify results, or anything can mean anything. In this regard, I have found that when I meet a woman for the first time, the Moon is in the same sign as her Sun, or Ascendant, or her chart ruler. Also, people often call me when the Moon is in a sign they have prominent in their chart, or characterizes the nature of the call.

 cathy martin

I've enjoyed the tropical/sidereal debate. Check out Ken Bowser's site on western sidereal astrology. The address is He had an interview in the Mountain Astrologer magazine that explains issue very clearly. It can be accessed on the "articles" page.

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