The 12 Cell Salts and Their Astrology Signs

by Robert Wilkinson

A friend thought the astrological correspondences for the 12 Cell Salts would be an article many would find useful, so welcome to today's subject for consideration. The 12 cell salts are considered to be necessary to our health, and I have found over the years that the salts corresponding to the Ascendant and sign on the 6th house are very important in our biochemical workings.

The Ascendant, of course, represents the physical vehicle and therefore the primary chemical makeup of a person. The sign on the 6th house also shows important factors concerning the physical health, since the 6th represents the health of an individual. I've also found that if a person has a stellium (3 or more planets) in a given sign, that mineral salt needs to be kept in the diet regularly, as do the substances ruled by the Moon sign, since the Moon rules our absorption and is active in our biochemical processes on a constant basis.

Apart from these few suggestions, there are other astrological factors that show our need for various salts. However, thanks to our fascist AMA, there are some strict laws governing what can and cannot be said regarding our health and what substances we might need. Therefore I cannot offer suggestions in this forum as to what you may need.

So that you may get the maximum benefit from this article, in addition to offering you the sign correspondences, I'll also offer you a few foods that are high in certain salts. Obviously there are other foods with these mineral salts in them, so don't confine yourself to what you read here. Please feel free to explore the subject to whatever degree you are called to do so, and if you find that certain salts (or foods) seem beneficial to your health, then by all means find the diet and/or supplements that work for you.

What follows are the astrological correspondences to the cell salts:

Aries - Potassium Phosphate, said to be good as a brain food helpful for nerve and brain imbalances. Foods containing this salt include Parsley, Beans, Beets, Carrots, Linseed Meal, Peanuts, Milk, Buttermilk, Cheese and Avocados.

Taurus - Sodium Sulphate,, said to be good in regulating the water supply in the body system, decreasing or increasing it as needed. Foods containing this salt include Cauliflower, Lettuce, Cabbage, Turnips, Radishes, Onions, Egg Yolks, Celery, Brussel Sprouts, Kohlrabi, and Milk.

Gemini - Potassium Chloride, said to be good for forming and distributing fibrin throughout the body, thereby moderating coagulation. When clogging occurs, it is associated with sinus and throat problems as well as fibrous growths. Foods containing this salt include Cheese, Egg Yolks, Radishes, Coconuts, Lentils, Carrots, Spinach, Asparagus, and Sauerkraut.

Cancer - Calcium Flouride, said to be good for muscle and ligament tonicity, (thus helping prevent muscle prolapsis) as well as healthy teeth enamel. Foods containing this salt include Turnips, Asparagus, Beets, Goat Cheese, Kelp, Garlic, and Pineapple.

Leo - Magnesium Phosphate, said to be good for healthy nerve tissue, thus assisting nerve transmission. Foods containing this salt include Cauliflower, Cabbage, Asparagus, Beechnuts, Almonds, Whole Wheat, as well as fruits such as Lemons, Limes, Oranges, Grapefruit, Figs, Gooseberries, Peaches, and Cherries.

Virgo - Potassium Sulphate, said to be good for circulation of oils through our body, which supposedly assists digestion and kidney function, as well as excretion of toxins through the skin. Foods containing this salt include Cauliflower, Lettuce, Cabbage, Onions, Celery, Brussel Sprouts, Tomatoes and Cucumbers.

Libra - Sodium Phosphate, said to be good for balancing the acid-alkaline function in our bodies, thus helping all acid conditions which affect the nervous system. Foods containing this salt include Cottage Cheese, Eggs, Buttermilk, Brown Rice, Tomato juice, Cirtus fruits and juices, Whole Wheat products, Lentils, Vegetable Greens, Asparagus, and Parsley.

Scorpio - Calcium Sulphate, said to be good for building and sustaining epithelial tissue, thus supposedly good for all skin diseases. Foods containing this salt include Cauliflower, Lettuce, Cabbage, Turnips, Radishes, Onions, Egg Yolks, Celery, Brussel Sprouts, Kohlrabi, and Milk.

Sagittarius - Silica, said to be good for building and maintaining skin, hair, nails, and nerve coverings, as well as removing decomposed matter from the skin. Foods containing this salt include Endive, Barley, Oats, raw Cabbage, Cucumber skins, Shredded Wheat, Rye and Whole Wheat products, Spinach, Peas, Carrots, Gooseberries, and Strawberries.

Capricorn - Calcium Phosphate, said to be good as a bone builder and helpful in any bone disease. Foods containing this salt include Parsley, Beans, Beets, Carrots, Linseed Meal, Peanuts, Milk, Buttermilk, Cheese and Avocados.

Aquarius - Sodium Chloride, said to be good for regulaitng the water supply throughout the body, thus affecting elimination and how "cool" or "hot" we are regardless of the temperature. Foods containing this salt include Onions, Celery, Tomatoes, Almonds, Apples, Spinach, Peaches, Pecans, Lentils, Sauerkraut, Eff Yolks, Swiss chard, and Roquefort and Goat Cheese.

Pisces - Ferrous Phosphate, said to be good for transporting oxygen throughout the body, thus aiding circulation which assists the purifying and stimulating of internal organs. Foods containing this salt include Raisins, Prunes, Plums, Grapes, Figs, Oranges, Spinach, Currants, Mushrooms, Dates, Beets, Wheat Bran, and Lima Beans.

You can find more about the 12 salts and supposed symptoms for their deficiency in your body by going to DoctorYourself.com

(This list of foods corresponding to the 12 cellular tissue salts was originally published in "Wynn's Astrology" magazine, March 1941, in the article "Zodiacal Salts and Diet" by A.J. Haworth, D.C.)

© Copyright 2008 Robert Wilkinson

Comments

[anu]

Hi robert
sehr interessannt. But too simplistic. How does it work? What about cusps? According to Placidus, aries is :hidden" part of my first house though rising decan is 21 degrees pisces. Also do planets therein influence, again what about intercepted planets, how does one account for that. I guess people shouldn't medicate themselves. I've tried these biochemic salts with no results for the last nine years and had to undergo a sinus surgery which had worsened coz of this passive treatment.
Instead the kapha,pitta, vata system works out better.
Some of the foods you recommend are contrary to the dosha system. eg citrus fruits for the kapha dosha actually worsens colds coz of the cooling effect of these fruits. Again a sinus condition may coexist with blood pressure which requires a different salt. My doctors says playing around with high sodium salts could be fatal for people with CHD or BP. Just though I'd let you know that there is need for caution for it seems too pat. Though i do so fervently wish it would work than going in for so many modern mdeicines that are so expensive and have so many side effects and even nebulous outcomes.

[WINDSOR]

I don't think the suggestion here is to choose a cell salt based on natal chart signifiers alone, but to keep in mind one's constitutional disposition as a backdrop in prescribing. If you look at the source material on cell salts, Schussler's Biochemic Method for starters, you will see that the strategy is to rectify symptomatology that has emerged as a result of deficiencies in the constitution. Finding the right tissue salt for what ails you provides gentle support for the body to get into parasympathetic rhythms and restore/repair. But if modes of diet and outlook are not altered to suit individual healing the symptoms will remain intractable. That's because there is _information_ in the dissonance of the disease that we are resisting, thusly it retain its form, its biochemical root. Further, your doctor is misinformed as to the risks of cell salt therapy. There is no such thing as "high sodium salts..."

There is no pill to cure anything. This is the crisis inherent in a mechanistic view of health and a pollyannic view of holism. Neither serves healing. Healing is simple. Its shadow integration. Its acknowledgement of meaningfulness. A pipe is never just a pipe in the world of our psyche/soma matrix and this is what our collective this-time-this-place bias has trouble wrapping its head around.

[Felita]

Hi Robert, I agree on the recognition of cell salts and have used them extensively, my children have them memorised by now.Understanding Biochemistry and having knowledge in Homeopathy . I Know Tissue salts work remarkably well on children, animals and on those whose vital energies are receptive to a small dose application. Some people ,and I suppose it would show Asrologically are extremely sensitive to high dosage minerals and concentrated herbs especially. Some people are so sensitive to their emotions even the cell salts can prove an emotional response. 'A' Type blood groups do well on small doses. 'O' Type handle herbs.Maybe an astrological difference or variables based on blood goup exist. I think that we are all so unique and constantly finding our homeostasis physically, emotionally and spiritually.So I take combination 12 , also keep all salts handy to take when the appropriate symptom comes up.I am sure our symptoms will show up Asrologically by transits to our natal chart and pandemics by outer or generational astrology.
Well spontaneously did this (it is late downunder)
Noticed moon void in Leo, and I did take, by chance Mag Phos this evening. Also Silica is good when weather goes hot to cold rapidly. Could come up with Global warming remedies!!!Nat Sulph and Nettle tea it is Spring for you in Nth hemisphere . Now I am sounding Leo!
Thanks for the food connection here, (we should live with natures medicine as being good food) and thanks for the reminder to respect and heal when necessary the physical body. Felita

[Nan]

Anu says,"Healing is simple." I only wish it were so. Ask the people who know--those who are ill and want to regain their health. It is actually quite the opposite--complex for many.
The cell salts are interesting. Has their been alot written and demonstrated about this?

[WINDSOR]

Actually Nan, it was me who said, "healing is simple..." Its only complicated because we make it so. Let me elaborate.

The zeitgeist of modern life is wedded to the notion of suffering and having "problems." Illness becomes intractable because our attitudes get stuck in the maya of persona and plot, or worse, it hides behind the mask of vanity run amok in so-considered enlightened lifestyle and "spiritual" practices.

This is not blaming people who are ill for their illness, an oft-spoken critique which is really a scat, politic way of avoiding a painful truth. We are all sick because we are here and "here" is dreadfully out of balance. We all have the means to alter psyche and soma to return to harmony, peace, balance, but most often we find the means unpalatable or too much of a paradigm-shift... while our illness, like all narcotics, remains soothingly familiar and a great server of complaint and martyrdom. We give a lot of lip service to wellness and health, but the truth is we prefer our drama, we prefer our pain. These are the unpleasant realities that are pressing forward in the collective for integration and harnessing. A larger more sober view of the human truth, and an honouring of the role of disease, death, and inescapable suffering is required.... There is no cure for the pain of having a full human life. But 90% of our suffering is unnecessary and totally avoidable. Its that simple.

[Robert]

Hi anu - This was never intended to be an exhaustive article on Dr. Schussler's gift to our world, or even the efficacy of the homeopathic model or other biochemical methods, but rather an intro for those who had never heard of the cell salts. They are more a general systemic support than curatives for severe illnesses. As for cusps, perhaps you can regard both Pisces and Aries foods as needed nutrients.

People have been self-medicating since the beginning of time. We don't necessarily need doctors to know what's good for us if we're open to learning about our unique biochemistry. However, when we need health care practitioners, we assume they know more than we do, whether that's warranted or not. For me, Western medicine has utterly failed me on so many occasions that I literally put my life at risk when indulging in the delusion that it can help me beyond certain narrow limits. I'm sure Ayurvedic medicine works better for some things than others, and definitely works better than the Western medical model for many ailments. So do acupuncture, cupping, diet modifications, yoga, homeopathic cures, Bach flower remedies, and other areas not valued by western medicine with its emphasis on drugs.

I would beware of generalizations such as saying that citrus fruits worsen colds. That's simply not true in my experience. Some legit sources say the bioflavenoid content of citrus fruits helps boost the immune system and the Vitamin C assists the elimination of mucous from the body, which actually helps mitigate what we call "a cold." Not all salts are alike, and most doctors have little or no dietary and biochemical training, so it's not accurate to automatically link high blood pressure with tissue salts in an arbitrary manner. Those of us with strong Aquarius in fact may need more Sodium Chloride than others. I've NEVER had any BP or heart problems regardless of how much salt I ingest, while I have known others who do. However, I do know of drugs like penicillin and keflex that have put me in hospitals and could have killed me through triggering anaphylactic shock. So much for generalizations.

Hi Windsor - You have stated my intention fairly accurately. Thanks for elaborating on some particulars. I probably should have included a link to Schussler's work in the original post, since it would explain things in better detail for those not familiar with the cell salts. Of course, some diseases or deficiencies cannot be "cured," even through personality integration, if they are associated with certain unique biochemical or physical qualities of an individual.

For example, when I was 9-10 my eyesight went from 20/40 to 20/800+ in a short time after a severe head injury caused by someone else's negligence resulted in massive damage to my optic nerves. Regardless of how many Tibetan eye exercises and gallons of carrot juice I subsequently did over years, it only resulted in my achieving 20/400 eyesight. It took Lasik to make me 20/20. And I'm told by my Oriental practitioners that I have kidney insufficiency. This is both genetic and exacerbated by several bouts of severe food poisoning over the years. I have done many things to strengthen the function over decades, but it's always going to be a maintenance thing due to my weakened and very sensitive digestive system. While the first bout almost killed me and forced me into a vegetarian diet in 1973, I cannot take responsibility for subsequent episodes caused by the negligence of restaurants that should have taken better precautions in their food preparation.

Again, individual organisms have individual needs. And of course, the physical is always to some extent the expression of the inner being, but life itself can deal us health curve balls that have nothing to do with personality integration (like food poisoning!) Still, I am in agreement with your approach. Sickness happens to physical organisms that are out of balance somehow, though often it's the environment itself which is out of balance with what our organisms can handle, due to massive pollution of earth, air, and water. And you're so right when you say "A larger more sober view of the human truth, and an honouring of the role of disease, death, and inescapable suffering is required.... There is no cure for the pain of having a full human life. But 90% of our suffering is unnecessary and totally avoidable." It really IS "that simple."

Hi Felita - You and your kids are fortunate indeed that you found your way to alternative health modalities. Individual sensitivities often show us more than whatever is obvious. I always did very well with various herbal "remedies," while I knew others who didn't respond as well, but did very well with homeopathic remedies and dietary modifications. And yes, you hit on something important. While we do have "chronic" needs built into our charts, there are also transits and progressions that show temporary emphases, or the beginning of long term maintenance challenges. And yes, eating the right foods are often the primary building blocks to any long lasting "cure" we need, since they provide needed vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and micronutrients.

Hi Nan - The "cause" of illness can arise from 10,000 vectors, and some "diseases" cannot be cured. Ramana Maharshi's cancer comes to mind here. He certainly was fully integrated as a human personality, and did not take refuge in his "disease." When asked by mind-body pioneer Dr. Larry Dossey at an event we both presented at as to why many of the world's great Spiritual teachers got incurable diseases or had chronic bad health (like HP Blavatsky, Muktananda, and Ramana Maharshi) I could only offer that they had those diseases to bring forth more compassion from their disciples, and to remind them that illness does not imply a spiritual deficiency, nor does spirituality give us a free pass from physical pain or death (unless you've reached the level of Babaji and others!) For more on the cell salts, please reference Dr. Schussler's work, since he originated the research.

[WINDSOR]

Hi Robert... a couple counter-points come to mind.

Yes. We all have our debt to pay to physical existence (see the work of Edward Whitmont) and, as the saying goes, no one gets out of here alive. Where my research and work is leading me to diverge from even the holistic status quo is with respect to meaning, those niggling imperatives to integration.

I think it was Charles Olsen, the American poet, who said, "We live out, until there isn't any, the argument of our lives..." Everything.... every biochemic or physiomechanic limitation or handicapp, every accident, even and especially all those vectors "beyond our control..." these all have content that fit, tongue and groove-style, into the mythopoetic plot that is our life story.

Again, this isn't about punitive analyses that leave us feeling worse than Job... pissed on and punished from a great height by unfeeling fate. Its about neutralizing the harshness of the edges on all these things by pushing the limits of what flatland reasoning deems credible ... accepting the logos trapped in the stuff.

It seems evident to me that we choose the somatic matrix and life-plot/conditions best suited to the work and education we're here for. Problems with specific organs or functions have a poetic string attached that, when finally grasped and yanked on for dear life, opens a veritable treasure trove of repressed contents and here-to-fore overlooked personal genius, life-purpose and potency. All dyscrasias and pains are just the negative-charged pawprints of positively-charged gifts waiting for engagement. And I say pawprints, for these gifts usually, but not always, refer to our repressed animal natures and other archetypal (ie. non-human) quanta.

We must struggle toward these gifts and struggle to harness them because that is what gives them their power, meaning and dynamism in our lives. If they came easy we'd find and treat them as worthless. The mind loves to take things for granted and give it a bit of "that's only this...." reductioneering.

And double yes, we all have to make due with a certain amount of dis-ability and pain and frustration. Its the grit that begets the pearl. We've just become so unconscious, deluded, and insane, we've taken this to extreme and unnecessary levels.

Finally, the reason, as you correctly discuss, that we must approach each case, be it someone coming for healing or chartwork or counselling or all the forementioned, on an individual basis.... we are all of us, every one, a unique variation on a theme. It's consciousness itself, refining and multipositing itself in order to become more self-aware as a collective organism. So the therapeutic aid, be it a remedy, a choice statement, an 'aha' moment, these are singular, yes, but to get there one must know a helluva lot about the broadstrokes that define us in the generals. As with the study of mythology, the stories are all the same, save for the local inflections. In healing, the local inflections of each case are the key, but to know where to insert it, you need the geography of contemporary and historic humankind as a palimpsest ever close at hand.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. These general angles can easily be applied to natal astrology work, which is why I thought to open up the discussion a bit more. If what I have to say is useful, great, if not, please ignore it.

[anu]

Dear windsor and robert,
this is truly the finest disquisition on disease. I try and log in every two days because here it feels like home, where I can put up my feet up and feel the comfort of fellowfeeling. That i sone great achievement Robert.
As you say truly it is the maya of the persona that brings forth so many of our interpretations of harmful or bad. Disease though is undeniably pain/discomfort inducing and anything at all that alleviates that to make us productive in every which individual way, is welcome.
Thanx

[Helen]

Hi Robert,

Interesting Post.

With my sun in Leo, Asc in Libra, Pisces ruler of the 6th, most of the foods you listed are among my favorite foods, nix the Lima Beans!

Peace,

Helen

[Robert]

Hi Windsor - Thanks for opening what seems to be a great, deep discussion about the nature of disease and our position in consciousness relative to those particular impermanent forms of suffering. I agree that there is much to the physical plane and its "diseases" that is unnecessarily difficult, given the larger architecture of the universe, its higher "laws," and the unreality of suffering on most planes of existence. Yes, it's true that all our strengths and weaknesses, tragedies and triumphs, are part of our mythos (great word - found it through Rudhyar 30+ years ago!) and that our wounds, whether sacred or profane, are grist for the mill of Soul. In healing our wounds we learn to recognize the wounds of others, and have the knowledge it takes to help them heal themselves as well, if karma permits.

Everything in our hologram must be fulfilled in form except those tendencies which we transmute before they embody in form into a higher, more subtle or ethereal form of that particular energy. That's why we're not doomed to repeat our difficulties over and over. We can lift the golden thread out of the mud where it will never touch again. That doesn't mean we won't touch others who are stuck in the mud, of course, since we're all in this together.

I remember feeling like Job for about a year a long time ago, complete with boils and "friends" who vanished because they couldn't handle my physical, emotional, and existential pain after the death of one closer to me than my breath. At least I didn't have "crop failure" in my 4x4 garden! Even a friendly plant can heal our pain if we are open to the communion.

There is a "logos" in all things, and it's true when we unconditionally accept the lesson, then things are often not so difficult, since our reasoning mind no longer gets in the way of whatever it will take for us to lose our separateness. Many of our handicaps, whether inherited or acquired, do show us the way to wholeness, at least in view, and much in this world seems to validate the prayer originally in the NY Herald-Trib obits, "God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the difference."

As for my food-poisoned digestive system affecting my kidney function, well, I suppose I'm still looking for gifts other than mindfulness and the joys of having become a vegetarian chef. It does help me address the meat heads out there who have animus against veg heads, since almost dying from eating meat usually brings forth sympathy and compassion from those who ordinarily get belligerent regarding meat. I don't think I can totally agree with the generalization that all diseases are associated with "repressed animal natures and other archetypal (ie. non-human) quanta." Remember - in this world we are either acting, reacting, or being acted upon.

For example, it's hard for me to attribute AIDS in a child raped by their parent or relative to something repressed in the child's nature. That child may or may not find their way to happiness and health. The parent whose child dies may or may not blow their brains out, or find a higher, better way. It's entirely up to the individual and their "free will" to find their way out of hell, which I believe relates to what you're trying to communicate. And I do not believe that bad things necessarily happen because of our actions, or even that we invited that particular horror in order for us to find the logos in that horror. I believe in this world there are messed-up people, some barely worthy of the word "human," who do bad things to good people. Some disturbed people do create unnecessary illness, suffering, and death. That we can find any "goodness" resulting from "badness" is a tribute to our Eternal Self always orienting itself toward something better. And of course, when we are victimized by "forces beyond our control," we are moved to act or react, which eventually can teach us greater things than we previously suspected. I believe this relates to what you're trying to communicate, that we can find a form of "truth," "god," or "goodness" by exploring our pains and troubles and finding something in the mystery of our life story in them.

You're right in that usually if we don't effort for a thing we disregard its importance, but in this community I know that most here value their wounds and trials as having revealed that which they probably would not have experienced any other way. This of course links us to each other, and all other beings throughout time, in a grand experiment in forms of truth. And it's also true that if we explore the "broad strokes" that unite us, we can come to a larger view of the human condition, which of course can lead to radical compassion.

Hi anu - See what you started? ;-) You just never know what might happen when you jump in and offer your take on things. Glad this is a place where people can "put up their feet" and have a discussion about things that matter, even if sometimes it goes into far out dimensions. I definitely agree that pain moves us to those things that can lessen our suffering if we are willing to walk the walk.

Hi Helen - Oh well, perhaps you'll find your way to the delights of lima beans yet! (Maybe a little butter and soy sauce with parmesan on top?) If not, I'm sure you'll find what you need in other foods more appealing.;-)

[Wild horse running]

Hi Robert,

this is a very interesting article and forum....and I wonder also about our natal chart/path...and things that need to be expierenced for growth of the soul? I have Pisces on the 6th house...and it talks about Diseases that are difficult to diagnose....my mother died of an auto-immune disease...Scleroderma...and I have had dreams/ref her and I connected in this way... that point to this possibility/expierence...and in my progressions chart for this year, it appears....so I guess Im wondering if it is in your natal chart.....it will possibly/most likely be an expierence?

namaste amigo....WHR

[WINDSOR]

Hi Robert... some more counterpoints and complementarities...

>>our wounds, whether sacred or profane, are grist for the mill of Soul...<<

Its really hard not to descend into dichotomies and duality schemes (viz sacred vs profane) in these matters, but I try to urge a different view. They are neither good nor bad, sacred nor profane, just classroom time. Neutral homework. What we're here for. In our seeped-into-bone JudeoChristian worldview we cannot but equate illness with sin and cure with redemption. There is some truth to that, in the sense that sin is unconsciousness and cure consciousness, and further because each change of state from uncon to supercon produces resonant values in one person that can assist those in orb to rise higher themselves.... but the language and associations we have to such things is a real handicap and sort of innocently misses the point rather entirely.

Because we inherit a world view that fancies disease, pain, suffering as bad, evil, mundane, we cringe when "good people" or "innocents" get sick because it seems so unfair. I like to urge resistance to this, in the same way that I urge we dispense with the new ageism that wealth can be seen as a reflection of our inherent goodness, or the degree to which the universe wants to enable our life mission and personal comforts.... usually in proportion to how much we fancy ourselves true, good, beautiful. Struggle is bad. Poverty is bad. Discomfort is bad. Synchronicity is good. Prosperity is its own blessing. And health is for the enlightened and progressive. Duality schemes harm us greatly with these either/or equations. These otherwise creative and highly fructifying waystations of struggle vs synchrony, poverty vs wealth, discomfort vs wellness are usually the last resort of the dual worldview and the hardest to root out and neutralize. I can get to the nuts and bolts more easily as I respond to some specifics...

>>Everything in our hologram must be fulfilled in form except those tendencies which we transmute before they embody in form into a higher, more subtle or ethereal form of that particular energy. That's why we're not doomed to repeat our difficulties over and over. We can lift the golden thread out of the mud where it will never touch again. That doesn't mean we won't touch others who are stuck in the mud, of course, since we're all in this together.<<

Absolutely. However I would add...

The process is not exactly one of linear ascent. I like to think of it as a fluid sea level that marks the transition from the wet domain of oceanic contents (our collective and personal unconsciousness, where the "gods" reside) and dry land (the domain that should be the fruitful garden where the soil of reason gets sexed and penetrated by the irrational angles of intuition, feeling (and a little goodly madness) that it might produce the crop of harnessed personal and collective "civilization")... In the context of personal lives, that sea level goes up and down.

And no matter how evolved our body/mind posture becomes, or how much growth we become the agent for and see the fab results of, we need the unpredictability of the occasional flood, the occasional wipe out, the occasional drought. I like to recall the analogy that the brighter the light the darker the shadow. For example, I've known some very 'enlightened' teachers who could not help but find themselves drawn down into the vortex of someone else's more unconscious center of gravity. Under such conditions, previously evolved persons do and say ghastly things. Conduct unbecoming and surely not representative of the intellect or spirit of someone as gifted or talented or insightful as they have demonstrated themselves to be. But in the interplay and personal theater requirements of "outside and other people" they cannot always respond perfectly, or even with any basic equipose. Because they are human. So via acts of commission or omission they show up in some people's lives as real shits. They harm, they wound, they scorn... etc etc.

This is a phenomenon governed by two things... 1) even the most evolved personalities need their imperfections to further growth and self-examination.... growth and self-examination produce areas where improvement can continue until our very last breath... (death is its own cure) and 2) its the interplay between holograms that's the real defining causation (not that I like to talk in terms of a causative worldview since the world of physics dispensed with the notion of causation back in the fifties, even though we still cling to the idea in almost every venue of life... but its a plausible shorthand here) ...

If person A has a deep need to call forth a certain experience, that need can induce behaviour in person B such that person B fulfills the dramatic enactment needs of person A and literally 'becomes' that perhaps inferior role for whatever period of time the induction field lasts. The conscious healer in the position of person B works to become aware of the plotline being magnetized by the weather system of person A so that they can gently guide person A to a position where they can see their own operant contracts with "outside and other people..." But no conscious healer on earth is powerful enough to be able to resist such weather pattern all the time. And this is good as well. We need the wounding experiences of unconsciousness like we need to eat tomorrow's food.

>>As for my food-poisoned digestive system affecting my kidney function, well, I suppose I'm still looking for gifts other than mindfulness and the joys of having become a vegetarian chef.<<

Yes. I think you answered your own doubt there. The 'gift' isn't always content per se. Think about it this way. If we were left to chart and navigate the courses of our own lives, without the intervention of both crap fate and general unfairness as well as synchrony and opportunity, think about where we'd be. Yikes.

I think it was Schopehauer who noted in his eighties... when he self-surveyed the story of his own life... he found, to his amazement, that all the choices and decisions and conscious directions he agonized over and deliberated and put so much effort into... well, they seemed to not amount to very much. It was the chance occurrences, the hand of fickle fate, the coincident meetings and things that could never be controlled that steered the ship of his life in a very certain, almost pre-ordained direction.... a direction that seemed to have its own intelligence to it in that "higher self" kind of way.... even while it was importing chance and "outside and other people" to do its dirty work.... So returning to your example, crap food poisoning and permanent damage to constitution was the price, but the purchase bought you deeper into who you really are and how this life of yours is meant to show up in space/time.... the vegetarian chef got born out of it. Who knows if that potential in you would have manifested in quite that way had the crap occurrence not blessed you with its shuttlecocking.

>>I don't think I can totally agree with the generalization that all diseases are associated with "repressed animal natures and other archetypal (ie. non-human) quanta." Remember - in this world we are either acting, reacting, or being acted upon. For example, it's hard for me to attribute AIDS in a child raped by their parent or relative to something repressed in the child's nature.<<

This is the argument a lot of us take recourse to.... what about all those "innocent" children dying of horrible diseases etc... Its a good test case to discuss because if we can unwrap our duality scheme here then its more easily undone elsewhere.

First of all, this view is trapped by the limitations of a single lifetime view. Second, it assumes, as I mentioned before, that disease is bad, suffering is evil, and that limitation has nothing to teach us. For example, in the case of AIDS, just for the sake of a case study, AIDS is the consequent disease of suppressed syphilis (see the work of Harris Coulter PhD., and others)... which, to make a superlong commentary short, represents the logos of impaired human connectivity. I personally don't find it all that helpful to try and make equations out of these things.... like saying, well, the child chose this life to learn the specific lessons wrapped in the mythos and enigma of this particular dyscrasia, but its the most heuristic statement we can make in the absence of peering into the very soul of our subjects.

Some things remain occult (hidden) because that's the way its meant to be. The price of enjoying the limit of a human life bound in time and space and mortal flesh is that we _can't_ wrap our limited consciousness around such transcendent things. Pity and compassion are not the same thing. Nor should we assume that burdens that come to children are "punishment" or karmic righting of past sins. Bollocks. Duality schemes again. Its just experience. Its our human blindness that wants to recoil from it and say, "Oh, that's just dreadful." No its not. Really. It simply is not. Yes, we need to aspire to taking action that brings humanity back to center, that "cures" the illness of our collective insanity etc... but we can't do that until we dispense with the view that these things are good or bad. Until we accept that to be human means we will always have to endure our share of "unjust suffering...." well, until we find a cure for being human.

And no, we don't always find something "good, true or godlike" in our illness. But we do find _something_.... and its that nebulous _something_ that's obscuring the deeper penetration into the mystery we all secretly crave.

This might be a great jumping off point for some discussion of the 6th and 12th houses. What do you think?

Warmly,
WINDSOR

[Felita]

Hi Robert and others. Good reading. I aspouse to the idea that dis-ease is exactly this and it stems from spiritual, emotional mind physical. Most disease is treated physically, the bandaid effect and repressed to eminate once again out another avenue of consciousness. I strongly believe in Louise Hayes emotional responses to physical ailments and definately spinal misalignments which in turn show how the dis-ease tries to find ease.When my son died I was 10 weeks pregnant with my 2nd son(a gift after loss, i am grateful for) He had a turned eye that had happened in the womb, It was fixed emotionally by a kineasiologist at 5 even though he only has 1/3 vision, right eye, his mother did not want to see death of male child.(he had to affirm he did want to see men) I also developed pnuemonia (grief)heart centre.But I was genetically disposed to a T.B Miasmic (genetic tendency) Although I ate organic food, did yoga, took vitamins, still my genetic, pastlife dis-ease held me. It took another tragic death that psychomatically nearly wiped me out. Till I saw A Classical Homeopath who dealt with the auric response to my health. And gave me high dose(minimum homeopathic concentration) to release emotional blocks, One such remedy. Staphasagria(looking over shoulder waiting for next bad thing to happen)very moon in Libra (resentments brought from pain and violence) I had to continue with emotional stuff to get down to physical. It is true we cant make health care simple. But an admission of it coming from more than just the physical is the realisation of our own responsibility to heal ourselves and know deep down love is truly what heals all. Robert, digestion is sth node Virgo energy to me, over and under and assimilation of much ingested through mind or body. Physically or not. Kidneys is sadness,water energies, nth node Pisces its good to release mind indigestion or over digestion through tears. Maybe I have some understanding with opposite nodes. Coffee is bad for Kidneys. Well thats my little bit could go on and on but will stop here. Thank you Robert for your fine conversation pieces. Aum Shanti Felita.

And also Thankyou Windsor, A fine healing intelligence you have there, enjoyed your speel.

[Robert]

Hi WHR - Our charts do in fact show us the lessons we need to learn, in terms of specific vectors. Of course, there are generic human lessons we ALL learn; our charts just show our individual timing and "cycles of becoming," as a great astrologer once put it. Pisces on the 6th shows lessons of both intuition and compassion re: diseases. Could make for a great medical intuitive, if other planetary influences concur. As we elevate our consciousness, we lift our lives out of certain lower manifestations. We still must fulfill Karma, but as we move into Eternal Consciousness, old parts of the physical and emotional karmas burn off, so to speak, since we no longer have any resonant frequencies on the level of diseases we may have been once predisposed toward. From another angle, once we stop being unconscious about what poisons us, and we administer whatever "cure" or preventative is appropriate, then we probably won't get that disease, though all of us have some deficiency that will manifest physically as we age. It's built into our dualistic system. Only when we are fully realized Yogis and Yoginis will be transcend physical decay. Remember that Yogananda's body smelled like flowers for 30 days after he died with no physical composition. But he did die. Our job is to learn how to live, free of fear and the causes of physical, emotional, and mental corruptions as best we are able.

Hi Windsor - We DO live in a dualism, the great Maya. That in-forms everything. The physical is where we work out many things, but the causes of disease are ALWAYS found in the astral and Manasic levels of existence. While seemingly a dualistic argument, in fact there are subtle frequencies where all Dukkhas arise from. Something you said in another comment stream has relevance to this discussion. ("Low self-esteem, like any other complex, has its root in biochemic condition.") Not exactly. This is confusion around an association relative to a root cause. The cause of all self esteem problems arises on the mental and emotional level, not the physical. While I agree that behavior modification, changes in diet and biochemistry, and other beneficial means can somewhat alter the brain chemistry, never forget the cure is never purely physical. That approach gives way too much power to the illusion. ALL worldly problems are only cured from the application of various forms of spiritual energies to attune the brain and feelings toward the spiritual.

Simply changing the diet will NOT cure a psychopath who is lost in a thanatophilic delusion, or child molesters who have consistently demonstrated less than a 1% chance of being rehabilitated by any means or combination of means. Power and fear drive these beings, and no amount of changing brain chemistry offers us "permanent" cures. Besides, taking that to its ultimate conclusion gives the state way too much power to give us chemicals that will guarantee we will not be a problem for those who decide what "cures" are needed for those who are deemed "maladjusted" by the state.

There are "lost souls" who do habitually hurt those who are good people who have nothing to learn from being hurt needlessly and senselessly. This is not a good thing. There is good and bad, even if we manage to find an impersonal view that it's all an experiment in Truth. If the experiment works, we've used the right tools in the right way and time. If the experiment doesn't, it means we are in error somehow, whether in assumption or execution. Even if we make lemonade from the rotting pile of lemons and see the evil-does as "one of us," in fact there are many levels of evolution, and some are definitely agents for asuras, or astral dopplegangers of those who did evil on Earth, or other misguided ones. But we must not ever accept that they are harmless or that that it's all okay since they're part of our hologram.

Some evils we do NOT invite, such as sociopaths who create problems for others. Just because a devil is charming does not mean that it was "supposed" to happen because we're supposed to learn from the evil. Evil must be resisted from the beginning, given no power whatsoever, and cannot be dialogued with, since in evil there is no Truth. There are levels of what could be termed evil. Think Stalin here. I refuse to accept that those millions he murdered and tortured needed that particular horrific experience to learn something. While we can always learn from experience, that doesn't validate the supposed necessity of the experience. We do not need to be subject to certain energies to know it's not good. While I accept "God is all there is," that doesn't mean I have much to learn from psychopaths hurting my loved ones.

"Sin" is an old archery term that means "missing the mark." It is the negative manifestation of Mars. The opposite is "grace." The eternal Mars duality is not the same as the duality of good and evil. While they coexist and have been linked by ego minds, they are different cosmic concepts that exist in any system of Maya. We can never get beyond Maya as long as our Consciousness is referencing any of this existence whatsoever. That includes ALL of us.

Again, the only true cure is on the spiritual level. I have never equated disease as unfair to innocents. But no one can argue that disease is a good thing, lest they bring it on themselves to learn that in truth it's not. To paraphrase His Holiness, we can all agree that less suffering is good and more suffering is bad. Wealth is an entirely different thing, and has more to do with inherited or self-generated karmas than "goodness" or "badness." And of course, I do agree that it's best to be somewhat detached, dispassionate, and discriminating regarding the dualisms you've stated. Wealth or poverty is no indication of much of anything except where a person put their energies, consciously or unconsciously.

Consciousness isn't linear, but multidimensional across the 12 frequency zones of human existence. We can have fully mastered some frequencies, while still learning much for centuries to come in other vectors. And of course, there are "permanent" levels of higher awareness that can persist across many lifetimes of being here. Though someday ALL is dissolved in the ocean of Supreme Love-Wisdom Intelligence, for now this is where we are, on the level of learning how to transcend the Dukkhas.

I do not accept that we "need" floods and disasters to grow. Do not affirm that or you just may be visited by some disaster to remind you that these are not good things to affirm. As for shadows, they only exist as a result of light hitting a dense field. So really it's the denser the field, the darker the shadow. The shadow is produced by density, not only brightness, since a translucent object creates a dimmer shadow, and perhaps none at all. And no truly "enlightened teacher" is drawn into anything not in alignment with their higher purpose. For example, I cannot imagine Sri Yukteswar getting involved in spreading AIDS through improper relations with any other. It is incomprehensible that an Ammachi could be drawn into anything inappropriate. So while lesser teachers may "do and say ghastly things" that's no argument against those who are beyond such conduct. Some consciousnesses among us are beyond those dualities that plague most of us. Some are human, perfectly human, but without the erroneous thoughts, feelings, and responses of most. That's why truly evolved Beings have no "imperfections to further growth and self-examination," since there is no separation on the highest of levels. But there is causation, in that all manifestations are dependent on something from which they originate. So physics is not entirely accurate in that respect. Some healers are beyond others' "weather patterns." Again, think someone like Ammachi here.

I have no doubt as to why food poisoning occurs, or what good I continually derive from my willingness to learn to be a good cook (which is a good thing whether induced by poisoning or not!) so I'm not sure why you're attributing doubt to anything I said. Again, I do not believe we need "crap fate and general unfairness" to learn anything after a certain point, since even a lizard knows not to walk into a fire. If we want to eat well, we learn to cook. It's that simple. As for not happening, that wasn't in the cards, due to the sheer numbers of times it happened. But I know many who have also been poisoned and still persist in eating meat, which is their choice, neither better nor worse than my own.

I didn't speak of innocents dying of diseases as much as I was speaking of those who are given those diseases by psychopaths and sociopaths. This is evil, because the perp had free will and choice, while the child didn't. I probably understand karma better than most, so am not confined by "the limitations of a single lifetime view." But surely you must agree that it is not a good thing for someone to give you AIDS when you didn't invite it! AIDS is not a good thing, regardless of how much we believe that disease and suffering is or isn't "bad." Again, we do NOT need to go to jail to know it's not a great place to be. There are many lessons we can easily learn without assuming them to be linked to the necessity for suffering. And children with AIDS from rapists probably don't want to hear about "the logos of impaired human connectivity." As one who has dedicated his life to helping people come out of ignorance and suffering into awareness and Bodhichitta, there are important equations in the human condition that must be addressed by anyone who purports to offer anything to others at all. And we CAN find Eternal Transcendent Consciousness if we do what we must. That's what Buddhism and other Higher Paths to Truth have demonstrated over the ages, producing various Eastern and Western Masters of the Wisdom who no longer need to be born but can put on or dissolve a physical form at will. That's a fact. And they didn't get there by dispensing with the view that some things are good or bad. All great Masters have had very definite views about what is appropriate or inappropriate in seeking, finding, and living Eternal Higher Consciousness. While swimming in Maya, we must learn our way around, and all things and behaviors are not blessings, even if we find some kernel of truth in the immensity of suffering. That does not mean we're supposed to condone it, welcome it, or participate in it. All things do not yield higher awareness.

Hi Felita - Let me again express my sincere condolences on the death of your child. My own grief resulted in a massive case of boils for months, which I eventually healed in relatively few hours through Louise Hay's remarkable work. It moves consciousness and perception into healing modality, and I've experienced first hand how going to the highest Spiritual levels actually can precipitate "miracle cures." Of course, many other cures can work equally well. The tracking of diseases through Lunar positions is the way medical astrology marks the changes and how well certain "cures" are working for the particular disease. That's why sometimes we must try alternatives at critical times in the process. And interestingly, I never drank coffee in my entire life until after my first bout of poisoning that almost killed me. After that, it completely "agreed with" my body. I tend to cut back in Summer due to the overheating quality, but in Winter it's like a nutrient to my system. I will definitely contemplate your offering around my NN/SN sign energies and possible correlations.

[ANU]

BRAVO. abso great that you cut through the simplistic linearity of the suffering game. It is about picking one's way through the chaos. Do you think our imagination developed the huge good bad flipflop and finally got us overthinking, attributing meaning where none was intended. Overthinking and rationalizing is a disease as also calvinistic suffering. Everything cannot be fitted into a manichean good/bad seesaw.Teleology is a disease we are burdened with.Sometimes things just are and we have to just be existing with our peculiar dispositions and diseases that are just states of being.Suffering doesn't lead to much except fear and sometimes also to compassion through empathic integration. BUt the rape of a child really disturbs me. Why must it exist in the universe? Isn't perversion a corollary of our imagination or is it hormonal/gene imbalance? Do we actually will suffering and torment on other sentient beings or is it just some sequences of bases gone awry? All faith breaks down in the face of such a Darwinian state.Then meaninglessness stares you in the face. And you make up another superstructure to fit in a new theory to make sense of the disturbing oscillations in the universe.Amybe they are not disturbing at all. just as animals accept pain as part of the condition of living, we need to do that with however complete awareness. Amazing discussion Robert.

[WINDSOR]

Robert... thanks for your remarks, and of course I want to counterpoint...

We're talking a bit at cross-purposes, not out of a basic dissimilarity in view, but because of an inevitable coming-up-to-speed on terms/concepts we can agree on.

Yes, we live in duality, we have to dance the dance. Which is why the only antidote is to keep one foot firmly rooted in a posture of mind not bounded by opposites and either/or's.

Yes, the energetic plane is prior to form. No question there. But as Ida Rolf put it, and I'm paraphrasing, the body is the only thing we can get our hands on. And further, the body is a concomitant of that which informs and maintains it. They are the same content, same image, same information.

I've already stated that in treatment schemes one needs to use ultramolecular therapeutics to neutralize the source of illness on the energetic plane. But once that's accomplished, maintenance of the tender new and balanced synergy is the feat to be mastered. That comes from good-enough posture of mind (thru psychological know-how, spiritual practise), good-enough lifestyle (thru diet and physical practises), and good-enough relational hygiene (thru work, service, love, family).

>>Simply changing the diet will NOT cure a psychopath who is lost in a thanatophilic delusion, or child molesters who have consistently demonstrated less than a 1% chance of being rehabilitated by any means or combination of means.<<

I know of other conclusions and results. See the endnotes to Dr. Gabe Cousens' tome on Conscious Eating. I have also done food work with addicts and criminals at a detox and found these results borne out in the practicals. Again, we like to cling to the notion that such cases are fixed, but they are fluid. We like it fixed because that makes the criminal not like us. If he can be restored to wholeness by some means, if his fate is fluid, then he becomes more like us, and we don't want to open that pandora's box.

But I assure you, restoration of consciousness and presence is possible. Our crap success rates here are more a function of how poorly we practise medicine and psycho-spiritual inquiry, and even more to the point, how much we need our collective scapegoats. Further, I'm not worried about the "state" using the connection between diet and mental health to its advantage. It already is. See the work of Dr. Vandana Shiva and others on the nefarious influence of agribusiness and food denaturers. If you think bigpharma and tobacco are the worst of our bad guys, think again.

>>There are "lost souls" who do habitually hurt those who are good people who have nothing to learn from being hurt needlessly and senselessly. This is not a good thing.<<

Nixnay. Either phenomena is meaningful 100% of the time or nothing is. We cannot select on which occasions there is significance attached and on which occasions the pipe is just a pipe. And this is not "overthinking and rationalizing" or "calvanistic suffering...." Its the ego not wanting to get its head around the ambivalence of a universe that doesn't much cuddle but does want us to let go of our addiction to the mind, the source of suffering itself.

We know by now through the study of mythology, quantum physics and statistics that events and circumstances have meaning. Why? Because when such a lens is applied we click into synchrony and movement, instead of being trapped by limited vistas and destructive nihilism. Its important to use lenses that open us up into constructive possibility, avoiding those that leave us shaking our head and gnashing our teeth at just how fickle and "bad" things sometimes are on this chance and accidental planet.

>>I do not accept that we "need" floods and disasters to grow. Do not affirm that or you just may be visited by some disaster to remind you that these are not good things to affirm.<<

Floods and disasters are motifs writ large in every part of human history. What's the point of wishing for a featureless ride when we know conditions are otherwise. To resist the cycles of nature is madness. And nature is chthonic. Creativity is about upheaval. The universe roars. The seas are calm one minute and chaos the next. As for _me_ being visited by disaster.... that made me giggle. Just a little.

>>But surely you must agree that it is not a good thing for someone to give you AIDS when you didn't invite it! AIDS is not a good thing, regardless of how much we believe that disease and suffering is or isn't "bad."<<

I'm not the one who's pinch hitting for the "good" versus "bad" camp, remember?

Our every experience is chosen by the soul, is in accord with our capacity to endure it, and is exactly what we signed up for. No matter how "bad" the ticket seems, there's no point whatsoever sitting there complaining about it, feeling sorry for oneself or wringing our hands at how "evil" the world or other people are. That leads nowhere and to _nothing_.

Remember Victor Frankl?

>>And children with AIDS from rapists probably don't want to hear about "the logos of impaired human connectivity."<<

None of us as children can adequately grasp the "unfair burden" bestowed ever so specially on our shoulders. That's the domain of the quest for meaning in adulthood. Let me ask you this? Are you seriously suggesting that you would rather the kid grow up to be a bitter resentful handicapp because he got the shit card with AIDS on it through no "fault" of his own? Or would you rather said impairment launch the kid into his own journey toward some kind of meaningful engagement and constructive life purpose? I know which I would work to foster.

<

Yah, I know. Some of them make it sound like programs for good skin and whiter teeth. Sorry to sound flippant, but I can't take such Saturnian constructs seriously because I have seen the shadow of enlightenment cast from the hem of many, many garments. And I'm totally open to the notion that its because of my own density, but I wasn't the exclusive and only common denominator. But that's another jaw-wag isn't it?

I have an 8th applying to 9th house VE/CH/NNode exactly conjunct the Aries point opposite JU/UR/SNode. I have had every form of "evil" and "unfairness" visited upon me. I've been taped up and left for dead and found in a vegetative coma. I've been beaten with sticks, rulers, belts and chords over three hundred times. I've been choked, molested, and gang-raped. I've succeeded in various professions lived in relative palaces. I've been a walking-wounded living on the street. I've experienced a "spiritual life" and I've smoked crack on the meanstreets whilst attempting every form of suicide.

After a certain analysis, which, incidentally I no longer proscribe to, I have known only pain, abuse and suffering. But then I decided to take matters into my own hands. I decided to stop being the innocent victim in a 'good and evil' world. I decided to love my abusers and opponents, but mostly to love my fear and my shame. And I decided to love my horrorshow life story since it made me what I am and I cannot change it. I can only change me.

I have known people at all levels of dysfunction, obviously some many would consider less-than-human given what they did to me... and I can tell you, there is only the heart.

I've made lots of mistakes on my way back, that's for sure. I spent many years trying to love "bad people" back into wellness. I know the difference now and that's not what I'm discussing here, nor anything I would recommend. I've had to learn when to turn my back on certain people, leave them to their own devices and the great maw of nature. I have had to learn when to let go and be dispassionate for the sake of my own survival and health.

Even with the many cases in my recall of people who killed themselves rather than change, or continued in their pursuit of a very dark road, I still remain hopeful and convinced that change is always possible and that no person on earth is unredeemable. If a single soul leaves this planet worse for wear, with transcendence and enlightenment undone, its because of our yet imperfect means. I again remain optimistic that we are on the threshold of figuring it all out.

Warmly,
WINDSOR

[WINDSOR]

***
Just a note.... there's a part missing from the above post.

When I write, "Yah, I know. Some of them make it sound like programs for good skin and whiter teeth." I'm referencing this....

>>All great Masters have had very definite views about what is appropriate or inappropriate in seeking, finding, and living Eternal Higher Consciousness. <<

Sorry about that.
W

[WINDSOR]

BTW Robert, just to give a working example of my fetish for meaning, my particular ghost in the machine, and why I dig it so much....

Let's take as a case in point what happened to my post above... that odd glitch where a comment of yours that I was quoting disappeared when my message hit the screen...

I don't look at that event as some trifle coincidence, nor do I think it an omen of great import, but I do go to a sweetspot between those two and definitely take the event as information conveying.

So to give example of my analysis with this event in mind, I was getting a gentle slapdown from the cosmos for throwing the babe out with the bathwater. There _are_ many goodly constructive teachers out there who have left us with great generals and doctrinal guidelines. I ought not be quite so dismissive just because I have a 9th house culminating SA.

Chewing on that little cosmic poke, the content of which I didn't particularly want to make a meal out of, that was real good for me. Particularly because it was not especially welcome or flattering for me to suck up. If I had dismissed that glitch as a "nothing but" I would have flattened the numinosity of this whirrld into a 2D TV set and missed the constructive feedback. I would have missed out on a chance to keep developing myself and instead slipped into the gravitational pull we all feel towards our self-idealizations.

Such is the on-going art of neutralizing and shadow-eating ... and why I have such a passion for talking to people about how significant every little detail in everyday/mythic life is and why its all constructive in its, yes, teleology....

Warmly,
WINDSOR

[wild horse running]

Dear Robert,

Thanks for your reply...I seem to be in a process of awakening to old fixed/rigid
"addictions"...and am finding possibilities and inner strength to try new methods of presentations. I see how strong the "Fog/Ego" is, and its determination to keep things "fixed". I also understand...from my expierence...untill that awakening begins to happen...it is very difficult to change, because things have been "crystallized"...and you have no understanding of a need to change.
Thank you again for you ability to share knowledge/spiritual advice...in a way that others can hear.

namaste...Teacher
WHR

[Robert]

Hi Windsor - To pick this up very briefly, since I have other pressing work to do and this thread is way off point: I have researched via Rand Corp for all known studies on b-mod among inmates to find all data on whether known psychopaths or other violent offenders become free of violent tendencies due to diet. To offer something from their analysis of many studies across decades, "There is ample evidence that dietary factors do influence behavior in known ways. The evidence is not clear, however, when these findings are applied to antisocial behavior and criminality. Nevertheless, inadequate dietary habits do appear to act as risk factors in the development of maladaptive behavior." After wading through countless studies, yes, deficiencies do make a difference in behaviors, BUT there are NO studies verifying that violent psychopaths, child molesters, etc. will cease their behavior by simply changing the diet or getting needed vitamins. There are much better results with ADD children, but I don't accept that ADD is a real "maladjustment." The mind's inherent tendency is restlessness.

Actually, the body is not the "only thing we can get our hands on." If that were true, meditation, Reiki, and other healing modalities would have no effect since "we can't get our hands on it." Gurus could not affect past and future physical karmas, which they in fact can and do. Also, the body does not necessarily conform to that Spirit which waits for manifestation, nor is bad diet necessarily a precursor to bad health. I've known too many who had bad diets and lived good lives on many levels. Addicts and criminals are not necessarily the same as violent offenders. There are degrees of brain chemistry imbalances, and some forms of criminal behavior are not violent. We are speaking here of violent offenders. There are no studies verifying that changing the diet of predators will stop their tendency to be predators.

All can be "restored to wholeness" but only by their own willingness to follow through on consistent disciplines of self realization. No external can ever effect a complete and lasting cure (other than extremely invasive means such as lobotomies, but that's not really a "cure.") I am quite familiar with the problems of agribusiness, GM, and denatured foods in messing with our chemistry. As for your "nixnay" comment to me when I stated that sometimes bad people do bad things to good people, you immediately framed it in terms of all or nothing, a very dualistic view. And please, sometimes, to quote Groucho, "a cigar is just a cigar." I note a tendency in some of your statements to lump many disparate things together, assuming there must be a correlation or that it's all meaningful relative to each other. In life, that's just not true. Things happen separately AND together, but there isn't necessarily a correlation or "meaning." That's an assumption that just doesn't hold water. For example, there is no meaning in the death of a child except for what we choose to bring out of the experience.

To address a couple of things. "Addiction to the mind?" It's our hardwired mechanism we learn to train. Addiction has nothing to do with it. If people are addicted to anything, it's desire, not mind. To answer another point, I'm not speaking of resisting the cycles of nature to say that disasters are unnecessary for our growth and development.

Again, when bad people do bad things, it leads to more suffering. Perpetrating suffering is not a good thing. I do not believe "every experience is chosen by the soul, is in accord with our capacity to endure it, and is exactly what we signed up for." I've known too much human wreckage to affirm that. That would also deny the reality of the free will of an individual to choose harmful or harmless behavior that does affect others and future karmas and opportunities to hurt or help. I agree there's no point in complaining, etc, and it may or may not lead somewhere productive. Grief can produce harmful or beneficial results depending on the individual.

Again, we're not speaking of children believing getting AIDS has anything to do with "fair." That seems to be your reference, but that's not what we're discussing. I'm not framing it as either the child resents being given AIDS by a rapist OR they begin a journey of meaningful engagement. That also is a false dichotomy. There are many other shades of experience beyond those two, and no child I've ever known would even know what "a journey of meaningful engagement" is. We're talking developmental stages here. No crack baby or infant raped by someone can do "meaningful engagement." And there WILL be a truckload of resentment once they realize the raw deal they got, whether we say carrying that resentment is bad or not. You've lumped adult human ability to choose response with infants, toddlers, and very young children. As one trained in developmental psychology a while ago, you're mixing apples and oranges. Even teens are unable to process or embrace certain things until after a certain developmental stage. That is hardwired into our mechanism as a result of whatever stage of consciousness we cultivated in prior lifetimes.

Again, fairness seems to be your issue. I've never once spoken about whether abusive or psychopathic behavior is fair. It's not about "fair." Life itself is not fair. That's not such a huge realization. I also have endured the torments of the damned, and also have known many men and women who have endured much worse. Glad you stopped whatever you needed to in order to come out of the victim state. But that doesn't mean you were not victimized. You are one story of victimization transmuted. Again, though, to get back to where this thread veered into unrelated zones, we're speaking of diet "curing" psychopathic behavior, which just doesn't wash in many cases, even if some of the violent tendencies in some people are mitigated some of the time.

Yes, there is "only the heart." But I assume you mean the Spiritual heart, which of course we cannot "put our hands on." Yes some people are redeemable, but only if they choose to participate. Some lizards are truly beyond redemption, because they will never change pattern. Change of anything in a personality is entirely within the realm of free will. Some predators LIKE to hurt people, and their perpetuation of karma will continue to generate hurtful patterns until they experience that pain they do to others and choose to change the behavior.

Hi WHR - Persevere, focus your consciousness on other realms, and soon enough the old patterns will die through a lack of perpetuation. Ego is okay, once it's been trained. Don't judge the process until the cake comes out of the oven. "The best way to fight evil is to make progress in the good."

[caliban]

As long as I'm here in the past, this cell salt thing is mighty interesting.